Big Scans

Robert Maxey · Jul 18, 2021

Who make a scanner for large films? Mr. Google does not seem to know. I would be looking for a way to scan 5 and/or 8 inch x 5 foot. Seems aerial photographers might know, but nobody seems to be able to handle the larger sizes. I know it is costly, most likely.

What happens if you have some 8 or 10 inch Cirkit negatives? No easy way to print them and so far, I cant find a digital printer to handle large images, which matters little because I cannot find a scanner.

The No. 16 Cirkit produces images 16 inches wide by 18 foot; somewhere in the gigapixel range. Not trying to fiddle with those negatives, because a No. 5 Cirkit is more doable.

A full rotation pan on 5 inch seems doable. If I can find a scanner and printer to handle extremely high resolution digital files.

Bob

MattKing · Jul 18, 2021

The City of Vancouver Archives has a wonderful collection of Cirkut negatives - most if not all of which have been digitized and are available to the public for free on the internet.
The archivists have developed a digitization procedure for these negatives, and in the past were more than happy to schedule a tour for those interested. That has been disrupted by COVID, but if you reach out to them I wouldn't be surprised if they would be happy to share information.

https://vancouver.ca/your-government/city-of-vancouver-archives.aspx

From their archives - after major downward re-sizing:

Robert Maxey · Jul 18, 2021

I look through their archives and send a message. There has to be a way to do it.

Bob

MattKing · Jul 18, 2021

Their process probably involves stitching from several discrete portions of the negatives.
And as for printing, you would need a digital printer that handles roll paper.
Of course, you could also contact print in the darkroom, using roll photographic paper and the techniques for processing murals.

wiltw · Jul 18, 2021

One would think that someone could have rethought the scanner design...rather than move the scan head across the print, move the print across the scan head. The limit would be the width, but not the length of the scan. Just musing out loud.
Not unlike large drawing duplicators that I used at my summer job during college, ink on mylar maps abou 4' x 6' (IIRC) duplicated onto a paper for daily reference.

Curious, I checked an Epson largest photo scanner is "large-format scanning up to 12.2" x 17.2", the Epson Expression 12000XL-GA is ideal for graphic arts applications. Featuring 2400 x 4800 dpi resolution."
Their scanners like what I mentioned are only 'document scanners' and made for portability.

But this outfit makes scanners to 44", like what I described...
https://www.colortrac.com/scanner-selector/

I presume some scanning services use products like these.

I just did a quick web search, and found a number of services offing 8.5x11" scanners, and a few with the Epson sized scanner, too.

Robert Maxey · Jul 18, 2021

MattKing said:
Their process probably involves stitching from several discrete portions of the negatives.
And as for printing, you would need a digital printer that handles roll paper.
Of course, you could also contact print in the darkroom, using roll photographic paper and the techniques for processing murals.

First the disclaimer: I do not know if this is technically feasible, and i am probably thinking above my pay grade, but here goes.

I am up for a good challenge.

In thinking about my old scanner; dead and in a closet, the thought occurs to me that I might be able to build a suitable size lightbox and add some diffusion (if needed) and disassemble the scanner. Build a little shelf on each side so i manually move the scanning head across the film. The box can be made from silkscreen frame parts.

Not sure how smoothly i have to move the head, or if there is something in the software/hardware that tells the scanner to stop after a certain time. My guess is there is a switch that tells Mr. Scanner to stop.

This way, I could scan a three/four/five foot negative with little problem.

Printing is another thing, however.

Thoughts anyone? Please shoot me down now, before i hit my thumb with a hammer.

Bob

Robert Maxey · Jul 18, 2021

wiltw said:
But this outfit makes scanners to 44", like what I described...
https://www.colortrac.com/scanner-selector/

Width does not seem to be the issue. I would like to figure out how to scan 5" (mostly) negatives 3-5 foot and longer. It seems odd that scanners can't be set to scan until they run out of original.

Thanks for looking, though.

One issue is the negatives. Maybe a wide scanner would work for some images, but I am hesitant to run a negative through a machine sideways. Old film, tightly rolled up and stuck in a tin container, and nitrate (in some cases) stock.

As the old saying goes: "Where is a will, there is a huge engineering invoice.

Bob

Robert Maxey · Jul 18, 2021

MattKing said:
Their process probably involves stitching from several discrete portions of the negatives.
And as for printing, you would need a digital printer that handles roll paper.
Of course, you could also contact print in the darkroom, using roll photographic paper and the techniques for processing murals.

Yes, that works.

I printed 8 x10 negatives on a Morse Contact Printer. If you know the printer, you might remember chrome plated round bars on either side, mounted with rollers and tiny bearings. There were also slots and connectors on both sides that looked like an attachment was used. Possible to hold paper. My thinking was/is Morse offered an attachment to contact print large negatives.

We had lots of banquet negatives in our files (probably printed in a frame) as well a large number of Cirkit negatives.

Thanks for the reply,

Bob

Kino · Jul 18, 2021

I visited a man years ago in Cincinnati, Ohio who had a unique way of printing Cirkut Camera negatives; a way so unique, it stuck in my mind for all these years.

He had a shelf painted flat black, bolted to the wall over a long table top, up against a wall in his darkroom. The shelf was actually a frame around 6 inches wide, with narrow strips along the front and back edges. The resulting "slot" in the shelf terminated about one foot on each end, short of the negative he was going to print.

The bench below had a contact frame he built for the film, which was loaded as normal, with long roll paper sandwiched with the negative, emulsion to emulsion and with the negative on top. You know, a typical contact printing frame only very long.

Overhead, he had ( I kid you not) a Large RC car chassis that just fit the rails of the shelf, but it was really geared low to travel about 1 to 2 inches a second. In the center of the chassis was an old enlarger light source with diffusion and a lens poking out of the bottom of the chassis. The lens had a light cone on the back of it that caused the lens to only project a perfect rectangle onto the paper; much like the rear end of a swing-lens panoramic camera.

He would load the frame, place the car on the shelf, turn on the light and start the car on it's journey down the shelf. Once it cleared the aperture on the far end, the car was at a steady speed and would make a consistent exposure all the way across the negative until it was once again covered by the far end of the shelf.

He had made many, many prints for himself and the local historical society with the giszmo, and the samples he showed me were quite uniform, with no banding.

Of course, this does nothing to solve your scanning problem, but I thought I'd just throw this out as a means of printing.

EDIT: I just found this page on how someone scanned and stitched Cirkut negatives:
https://thelawlers.com/Blognosticator/?p=1263

Adrian Bacon · Jul 18, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
Who make a scanner for large films? Mr. Google does not seem to know. I would be looking for a way to scan 5 and/or 8 inch x 5 foot. Seems aerial photographers might know, but nobody seems to be able to handle the larger sizes. I know it is costly, most likely.

What happens if you have some 8 or 10 inch Cirkit negatives? No easy way to print them and so far, I cant find a digital printer to handle large images, which matters little because I cannot find a scanner.

The No. 16 Cirkit produces images 16 inches wide by 18 foot; somewhere in the gigapixel range. Not trying to fiddle with those negatives, because a No. 5 Cirkit is more doable.

A full rotation pan on 5 inch seems doable. If I can find a scanner and printer to handle extremely high resolution digital files.

Bob

You will be very limited in your overall resolution as tiff files are limited to about 4GB per file. There are versions of the format that let you go bigger, but the cost is software compatibility.

it’s shockingly easy to bump into that problem with 8x10 negatives, the larger the negative, the less dpi you have to stay under that file size.

Robert Maxey · Jul 18, 2021

Thanks to everyone. Rather than write a bunch of replies, I'll simply say thanks, one and all. Thanks for the links, too.

Hey Kino, a small motor drive and a few gears might make it easier. Thanks.

wiltw · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
Width does not seem to be the issue. I would like to figure out how to scan 5" (mostly) negatives 3-5 foot and longer. It seems odd that scanners can't be set to scan until they run out of original.

...which is why I mentioned the need for a different form of scanner that moves the film past the scan head.
They have this design in document scanners, but for some reason have not applied it to film.
While I was in college, I had a summer job in the mapping department of a ultility, and I made the majority of maps with ink on mylar for 1"=500' scale. After making the mylar map, I would take the map to the document copying department, and they would make a paper working copy of my 4' x 6' mylar master...a 'blueprint' copy. The concept could readily be applied to digital scanners, and this does exist for 'portable' document scanners...but not for film.

Kino · Jul 19, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
You will be very limited in your overall resolution as tiff files are limited to about 4GB per file. There are versions of the format that let you go bigger, but the cost is software compatibility.

it’s shockingly easy to bump into that problem with 8x10 negatives, the larger the negative, the less dpi you have to stay under that file size.

Quite true. You could probably build a stationary platen scanner with a moving head and a Dalsa line-array camera to do high res scans, but good luck affording the monster computer with the multiple data buses that could handle the staggering amount of data generated in real time. You're probably talking 10 to 20K USD for the computer alone, not to mention the software development cost.

removed account4 · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
Who make a scanner for large films? Mr. Google does not seem to know. I would be looking for a way to scan 5 and/or 8 inch x 5 foot. Seems aerial photographers might know, but nobody seems to be able to handle the larger sizes. I know it is costly, most likely.

What happens if you have some 8 or 10 inch Cirkit negatives? No easy way to print them and so far, I cant find a digital printer to handle large images, which matters little because I cannot find a scanner.

The No. 16 Cirkit produces images 16 inches wide by 18 foot; somewhere in the gigapixel range. Not trying to fiddle with those negatives, because a No. 5 Cirkit is more doable.

A full rotation pan on 5 inch seems doable. If I can find a scanner and printer to handle extremely high resolution digital files.

Bob

hi bob
how big do you want, or need the scans ? or is this a theoretical problem ?
I ask because the only way there will ever be such a scanner for such a rare occurrence ( scanning an 18 foot negative) is to build it oneself. and it sounds like a fun project
There is no use other than the oddball situation where some hobbyist makes a 18foot negative, just like there are no developing tanks for a sheet of film that is 16" wide and 18feet long.
If you have a working one of these cameras my guess is once you have figured out how to process the film, you would just make a 18 foot long sun print on POP paper and if you for whatever reason need a copy that is bigger than 16" buy 18feet long you'd come to that bridge when you cross it .. don't forget you will need a computer that has a massive amount of storage to store all that "data" .. scanning is only 1/4 the problem.

have fun with your cirkit camera!
John

ps. you might contact Jim Galli, he regularly uses Cirkit cameras .. and see what he suggests

calebarchie · Jul 19, 2021

These machines do exist, what you are looking for is a photogrammetric scanner - there are a range of solutions provided by Leica, Vexcel, Wehrli and even Digital Transitions:

https://leica-geosystems.com/services-and-support/product-services/film-scanner-support
https://heritage-digitaltransitions.com/reel-film-top-for-the-dt-atom/
https://www.vxservices.com/index.html
https://www.wehrliassoc.com/index.html

Bests,
C

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

jnantz said:
hi bob
how big do you want, or need the scans ? or is this a theoretical problem ?
I ask because the only way there will ever be such a scanner for such a rare occurrence ( scanning an 18 foot negative) is to build it oneself. and it sounds like a fun project
There is no use other than the oddball situation where some hobbyist makes a 18foot negative, just like there are no developing tanks for a sheet of film that is 16" wide and 18feet long.
If you have a working one of these cameras my guess is once you have figured out how to process the film, you would just make a 18 foot long sun print on POP paper and if you for whatever reason need a copy that is bigger than 16" buy 18feet long you'd come to that bridge when you cross it .. don't forget you will need a computer that has a massive amount of storage to store all that "data" .. scanning is only 1/4 the problem.

have fun with your cirkit camera!
John

ps. you might contact Jim Galli, he regularly uses Cirkit cameras .. and see what he suggests

Unless I can find a reasonable solution, No Cirkits for me. Apparently, film is not a big issue. The problem is in dealing with the negative. I will likely look into a 5" camera because it seems more reasonable. The problem is nobody seems to have one for sale. I can shoot smaller sections of the roll rather than make 360 pans.

My solution to developing is easy: lengths of PVC pipe and homemade aprons. Not a daylight tank, but that is not a problem.

I guess smaller sections of a negative are ok. I am still working out the logistics.

Cheersw, Bob

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

calebarchie said:
These machines do exist, what you are looking for is a photogrammetric scanner - there are a range of solutions provided by Leica, Vexcel, Wehrli and even Digital Transitions:

https://leica-geosystems.com/services-and-support/product-services/film-scanner-support
https://heritage-digitaltransitions.com/reel-film-top-for-the-dt-atom/
https://www.vxservices.com/index.html
https://www.wehrliassoc.com/index.html

Bests,
C

I am familiar with Wehlri; I found them a few searches ago. Thanks for the other links.

Bob

removed account4 · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
Unless I can find a reasonable solution, No Cirkits for me. Apparently, film is not a big issue. The problem is in dealing with the negative. I will likely look into a 5" camera because it seems more reasonable. The problem is nobody seems to have one for sale. I can shoot smaller sections of the roll rather than make 360 pans.

My solution to developing is easy: lengths of PVC pipe and homemade aprons. Not a daylight tank, but that is not a problem.

I guess smaller sections of a negative are ok. I am still working out the logistics.

Cheersw, Bob

sounds like you have a plan, good luck with that !
make sure the gears and clockwork are all in tact sometimes these cameras are sold as complete but they are missing things and sometimes they are sold as working and do weird stuff ... as mentioned previously I'd contact Jim Galli he uses these cameras and was recently advertising that he was looking for parts for one the last few months so who knows maybe he is getting one ready to sell that is working ? from time to time he sells them ... he had one in the classifieds here within the last year ...

he might also offer solutions to developing and scanning you had not thought about since he actually does it ..

John

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

jnantz said:
sounds like you have a plan, good luck with that !
make sure the gears and clockwork are all in tact sometimes these cameras are sold as complete but they are missing things and sometimes they are sold as working and do weird stuff ... as mentioned previously I'd contact Jim Galli he uses these cameras and was recently advertising that he was looking for parts for one the last few months so who knows maybe he is getting one ready to sell that is working ? from time to time he sells them ... he had one in the classifieds here within the last year ...

he might also offer solutions to developing and scanning you had not thought about since he actually does it ..

John

I have turned down in the past because the gear sets were either gone or a few gears were missing. But we live in the internet age where I might be able to find gears that will work off the shelf, more or less. Lots of factors to consider.

I might simply buy a Korona and be happy. Smaller negatives and it is easy to make a printing frame..

Bob

removed account4 · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
But we live in the internet age where I might be able to find gears that will work off the shelf, more or less.

good luck with that,
you might be better off as you said using a banquet camera ... or making your own ..

you might look into what tom yanul was doing over the years, he made enlargers for his banquet camera negatives and yulepan delineator camera negatives

http://www.thomasyanul.com/citypan.html
http://www.thomasyanul.com/lab.html

Yukon Alvin · Jul 19, 2021

Bob, you might want to look at labs that do map scanning. I work as a digital tech for an archives and use a Contex HD5450 that can do 55" wide by ... My largest scan so far was 36 inches by 55 feet (Tiff 2.93 GB file). It handles reflective and transparent document very well.

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

Yukon Alvin said:
Bob, you might want to look at labs that do map scanning. I work as a digital tech for an archives and use a Contex HD5450 that can do 55" wide by ... My largest scan so far was 36 inches by 55 feet (Tiff 2.93 GB file). It handles reflective and transparent document very well.

Hi ...

Thanks for the tip. Their scanners, or at least the 54 inch model, sets no limits on length. I will think about that one.

Cheers

plummerl · Jul 19, 2021

So, just curious. If the width is 5 inches, why wouldn't it be feasible to simply use a digital camera (like my Sony A7Riii) and take a series of shots that are then stitched back together? I've used mine to digitally scan my 4x5 negatives/transparencies (one shot, not stitch) with terrific results. The Sony gives me 43MP captures.

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

plummerl said:
So, just curious. If the width is 5 inches, why wouldn't it be feasible to simply use a digital camera (like my Sony A7Riii) and take a series of shots that are then stitched back together? I've used mine to digitally scan my 4x5 negatives/transparencies (one shot, not stitch) with terrific results. The Sony gives me 43MP captures.

Yes, the film is only 5 inches wide, but many feet in length. The camera is a large, rotating panorama camera. There were many versions, up to the No.16, which was a 16 inch camera that shot 16 inch wide roll film, 18 foot long.

Cheers, Bob

plummerl · Jul 20, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
Yes, the film is only 5 inches wide, but many feet in length. The camera is a large, rotating panorama camera. There were many versions, up to the No.16, which was a 16 inch camera that shot 16 inch wide roll film, 18 foot long.

Cheers, Bob

Hi Bob, I do understand the concept of the Cirkut. My suggestion was to take segmented images of the film strip, roughly 9 images for a 3ft., 15 for a 5ft. Then simply stitch the images together. This could be done quite easily with a copy stand, appropriately sized light panel and a negative holder. Many people are very successfully doing this with 120 & 4x5 (and larger) with very good results.

As far as digitally printing, my Epson P800 will print 17 inch roll paper up to a length of 49 feet. Seems like this would handle your Cirkut images!

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