Big Problems with Clayton 'Archival' Fixer

I just finished another session with the VERY LAST of my Agfa MCC resources... I'm doing 16x20 and 20x24 exhibition prints. So it's REALLY pretty critical to me that my stuff gets well processed. At any rate - I've been using Clayton's 'Archival' Fix and been getting a pretty severe case of what I affectionately refer to as 'fixer burn'. You know.... when you turn on the room lights far too soon and you get yellow/brown staining on your otherwise lovely prints...? I was using their recommended dilution (1:7 if I recall) - and so had to concentrate both baths up to 1:3 just to improve things. I've been waiting at LEAST 3 minutes agitating in the fix before turning the room lights on... things seemed to be going well until I noticed a very pale straw coloured patchiness showing up on two of the prints... that I'm effing PISSED is an understatement (well - frustrated)... I've gone over and over everything and cannot possibly figure out what the problem is. I've NEVER had this problem with ANY print fix in the (25?) years I've been printing - with ANY product. I don't want to bash clayton - they're nice folks - instead I'm trying to figure out if there was a bad batch or if anyone else has had problems lately with their product. Or with any product... or if there's any other possible explanation for this...! (too much stop or dev carryover...??). Anyone have a clue...?

I'm sorry for this. I have used this fix for years and never had a problem like this. Same dilution as you did (1+7), two baths and 3 minutes each, lights on only at the end of the process. I switched to Hypam (and now do 2 and 2 minutes) just because it is cheaper.
My stop is very strong, maybe your isn't strong enough ?

One of the students that I teach was having this problem just this morning. She was using Agfa MCC 111 FB, but Ilford Fix. She was getting a yellowing that was immediately noticeable under room lights. We verified that all her chemistry dilutions were okay, and that she was fixing for a long enough time. Once I followed her procedure, it turned out the culprit was that she was bringing the prints straight from the fix out into the viewing lights. I guess the fix dried a bit; it's got a weak yellow colour, after all.

Anyways, I got her to rinse the print in the wash for a minute before taking the prints out, and all was well. The yellow colour washed right off.

I suspect that may be your problem. Try giving them a rinse...

Good luck!

Were you using a rinse or a stop after development? If you use a rinse and it is either still water or very slowly running water, many fixes will cause the effect you see and in some cases it cannot be removed. I have been experimenting with this very problem and have determined that the larger the print or the more the number of prints passing through a still or slowly moving rinse will yellow from medium to very bad. The type of fix, that is the pH is a big factor as is dilution.

Increasing the flow of water in the rinse or using a stop and leaving the lights off longer are all helpful as is making the fix more concentrated or more acidic.

It is possible in some cases to actally blacken a print in the fix if the development is strong and the rinse is weak and the fix is neutral to alkaline. Follow recommendations by the mfgr or follow the corrective measures that I have noted above.

PE

Thanks for your suggestions, all...
I will investigate further - it has always been my standard practice to turn on room lights after about a minute in the first fix. But I've NEVER had a problem with that. I probably wouldn't be having this issue if I hadn't broken my 16x20 ciba drum by dropping it on a concrete floor from a height of 12 ft...!! But that's beside the point I guess.

I was using kodak indicator stop and devving in dektol - though i frequently use ansco 130 dev. Big prints are pretty slow to drain of developer and use up the stop bath pretty quickly. The Clayton fix isn't anywhere NEAR as strong smelling (ammonia from the ammonium thio.) as other fixes... I wonder if it's more sensitive to this problem - or at least requires a more rigorous procedure...

The disturbing thing on one or two of the prints is that a few straw colored patches showed up only after about 15 mins in the wash...! - I threw them all back in a third fix bath after seeing that. No - I found the patches do NOT wash off. That's why I refer to them as 'burn' patches. I suspect it is simply residual ionic silver 'printing out' that's doing this.

Hey Guillaume... too bad I missed your opening...! Wish you'd informed me...!! Bâtard, toi...!!

They are burn patches and are the result of weak or exhausted fix. The emulsion is retained in part, and some developing agent is left and the pH is alkaline so when you start washing, a yellowish deposit of silver halide and silver appear in the paper. I have seen it gradually turn brown, then gray and finally black.

Use stronger fix. Sounds like it was too dilute for some reason.

PE

Sparky said:

The disturbing thing on one or two of the prints is that a few
straw colored patches showed up only after about 15 mins in
the wash...! - I threw them all back in a third fix bath after
seeing that. No - I found the patches do NOT wash off.
That's why I refer to them as 'burn' patches.

I suspect it is simply residual ionic silver 'printing out'
that's doing this.

Click to expand...

Bulls eye. I've seen it many times when testing various
papers for their minimum fixer requirements. Out of the
fix looking great then after a short while under room lights
a color develops. The hue depends upon the paper and the
exact fixing; creamy pale yellow, dirty dark mustard,
pleasant warm tan, light gray.

If you plan ahead and know your paper and fix a paper can
be converted from snow white to some pleasant warm tone.

That patchiness bespeaks of uneven fixing. Those print
areas of least exposure contain the greatest amount of
fixed silver. If they are clean then overall the
print Should be.

An aside: I wonder if not the ST-1 test may be
superfluous. If silver is present in the emulsion and
prints out with lights on then why use that sulfur test
for residual silver? Perhaps it is more sensitive? Dan

Although this does not address your point, consider single tray processing. Since I switched to that I have had no mysterious processing problems. Carryover from one solution to the next is greatly minimized. However, I am always amazed how yellow my first fix solution gets (from the indicator stop) even though I give a thorough water rinse after the stop. I use relatively small volumes of solution but if printing a larger run I will dump used solutions midway and replace with fresh chemicals.

You did not mention if this problem was happening with fresh fixer or used fixer. Also, a simple test for clearing time with your paper and your fixer could give you an idea of its activity. Hard to imagine that a fresh, two bath fixer diluted 1:3 would be inadequate.

Did you get my PM ?

Photo Engineer said:

Use stronger fix. Sounds like it was too dilute for some reason.

PE

Click to expand...

Yes - I'd already concentrated it to 1:3.5 after it happened the FIRST time... and then it happened AGAIN...! Amazed...!

dancqu said:

That patchiness bespeaks of uneven fixing. Those print
areas of least exposure contain the greatest amount of
fixed silver. If they are clean then overall the
print Should be.

An aside: I wonder if not the ST-1 test may be
superfluous. If silver is present in the emulsion and
prints out with lights on then why use that sulfur test
for residual silver? Perhaps it is more sensitive? Dan

Click to expand...

Esp. since I'm doing a very hypersensitive toning process that seems to leave a streaky result no matter how even your fixing is... the fluid dynamics of tray processing always confounds me... I tend to rock back and forth along two axes... you would think it's enough. Maybe I really have to go back to drums...!

As for the silver test... I really don't know... I'd ASSUME the mfrs have it figured out... but it wouldn't be the first time that mfrs have been given too much credit...!

jeroldharter said:

Although this does not address your point, consider single tray processing. Since I switched to that I have had no mysterious processing problems. Carryover from one solution to the next is greatly minimized. However, I am always amazed how yellow my first fix solution gets (from the indicator stop) even though I give a thorough water rinse after the stop. I use relatively small volumes of solution but if printing a larger run I will dump used solutions midway and replace with fresh chemicals.

You did not mention if this problem was happening with fresh fixer or used fixer. Also, a simple test for clearing time with your paper and your fixer could give you an idea of its activity. Hard to imagine that a fresh, two bath fixer diluted 1:3 would be inadequate.

Click to expand...

Do you mean one tray for ALL solutions or single fix? I think there's a surprising amount of solution lurking in the laminar layer of a print... maybe as much as 10 ml on a well-shaken-off 8x10 - and 40ml on a 16x20...

The fix is (relatively) fresh. Worst-case scenario is re-using it from the previous session (my volume of prints is quite low).

ahhh okay - that's what I was thinking. thanks curt.

PE - or anyone else - you think THIS might work to get rid of the nasty little buggers...?
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The formula you refer to is a permanganate/sulfuric acid bleach for silver. It is a powerful emulsion softener as well as a stain remover (bleach) and can cause problems. It is also sometimes very fast acting depending on the form of the image silver and the stain.

It would not hurt to try since the prints would be a total waste otherwise. Be careful, this solution can burn you severly. Wear rubber gloves and safety glasses.

PE

Sparky said:

Do you mean one tray for ALL solutions or single fix? I think there's a surprising amount of solution lurking in the laminar layer of a print... maybe as much as 10 ml on a well-shaken-off 8x10 - and 40ml on a 16x20...

The fix is (relatively) fresh. Worst-case scenario is re-using it from the previous session (my volume of prints is quite low).

Click to expand...

A single tray for all solutions.

The HeyLloyd website alluded to earlier gives an explanation. For 8x10 prints, I use 11x14 inch trays and a series of 2000 ml beakers for each of the chemicals. No tongs, less mess, less fumes, less space, works well for batch processing also.

Sparky, I am dismayed at the problem you describe. The only time I have seen anything like the issue you describe was an emulsion problem. Please send me a sample of the problem so I can look at it myself.
Clayton Chemical
1210 W. Jon St.
Torrance, CA 90502

It is pretty hard to mess up a paper emulsion to give the results described. In fact, other than coating about 5x the amount of silver halide needed or using a film emulsion on paper, there is really no way this effect could be seen as an emulsion problem. If it were either of these, the defect would also show up in very bad prints.

When seen, this type of problem is usually a process defect as I noted in my first post here, an error mixing the chemistry, or defective chemistry.

PE

jeroldharter said:

A single tray for all solutions. The HeyLloyd website alluded
to earlier gives an explanation. For 8x10 prints, I use 11x14
inch trays and a series of 2000 ml beakers for each of the
chemicals. No tongs, less mess, less fumes, less space,
works well for batch processing also.

Click to expand...

Years ago I didn't want to be the only odd-ball on the
street so was glad to read of Lloyd's one tray processing.
I had encountered in Camera and Darkroom details of one-
tray processing so with my otherwise little space decided to
adopt the method. Actually when you think about it the
method is very similar to rotary processing.

So now I process one tray - one shot. No stop needed and
archival levels of silver with one fix. All chemistry is used
very dilute with workable but minimal solution volumes.

I've never been able to persuade Lloyd to shift from his
one tray reuse chemistry method. With one-shot chemistry
it's down the drain once each processing step is completed.
Again, a practice some rotary users employ. Dan

dancqu said:

...All chemistry is used
very dilute with workable but minimal solution volumes...

Dan

Click to expand...

Dan,

I do single tray and re-use chemicals throughout a day or through a run of prints. I don't store working solutions beyond the working session. In my mind that approximates one-shot processing. I would think that using dilute solutions would require you to mix a fairly large batch, store that in large containers, move some of each to smaller containers, etc. and then discard unused solutions at the end of the run. I might not be picturing it correctly.

Could you give more detail about your layout such as how many beakers used, volumes mixed, actual dilutions of developer/fixer/hypoclear, etc. You've got me thinking. Thanks.

Jamie

One tray processing is as old as wet photography! It is not a new "invention". It is probably so old people have just forgotten how to do it. Kinda like making arrowheads from flint.

PE

Lowell Huff said:

Sparky, I am dismayed at the problem you describe. The only time I have seen anything like the issue you describe was an emulsion problem. Please send me a sample of the problem so I can look at it myself.
Clayton Chemical
1210 W. Jon St.
Torrance, CA 90502

Click to expand...

I think I've got the source of the problem more or less figured out, Lowell - I have several partly used bottles of your product - some pretty old, and it's possible I might have used the bottle to store a working solution in for temporary use. Simply because I DO know there are several occasions on which I'd been known to do that. But i normally mark them as such in those cases. I may have forgotten. That solution didn't have as strong a smell of ammonia as the others I had. So - I'll have to assume it was 'user error'. I seem to have it working fine with a new bottle I had...! Thanks for the nice offer though.

Apologies for any negative press I may have conjured. I'm sure it's not warranted and yours is a fine product that I will continue using (and yes - I wrote this of my own volition - Clayton has not threatened, cajoled or otherwise blackmailed me! - I just don't want to besmirch their good name for no good reason!)

J.

Well - on the theme of single tray processing. Some of my very 'cleanest' prints that 'sing' the most were done in drums. Why it is - I still scratch my head over. Could be consistency - could be zero exposure to stray light (safe or otherwise)... it's interesting to consider.

[QUOTES=jeroldharter;651733]
"Dan, I do single tray and re-use chemicals throughout
a day or through a run of prints. I don't store working
solutions beyond the working session. In my mind
that approximates one-shot processing."

I stretch one-shot as far as batch processing; up to
four at a time. Reuse with one tray processing though
is a matter of shot term storage in another location.
Fresh each sheet of paper or roll of film is the
heart and sole of one-shot.

Consistency and the lack of down stream chemical build
up are advantages. The later has the great advantage of
obviating the need for a stop bath. Fixers of neutral +/-
some little ph are a good choice.

For myself a down side is the volume of water needed
to tray process one-shot. My tap water is very hard so
distilled is used start to scratch. My 8x10 tray requires
about 1/3 liter for easy working. That for developer
and a same amount for fixer go down the drain
after one use. On the other hand there is a
BIG savings of water when washing. The
fixer has near nothing in it. The single
fix never exceeds archival levels.

"I would think that using dilute solutions would require you
to mix a fairly large batch, store that in large containers,
move some of each to smaller containers, etc. and then
discard unused solutions at the end of the run. I might
not be picturing it correctly."

I know ahead of time how many prints or rolls of film I'll
be processing and so prepare just the needed amounts.
Cups of proper size make splitting easy. Working with
stock or working strength, quite exact amounts can
be readied ahead or during a session. Final dilution
of concentrates or stock solutions can wait till
the last minute.

"Could you give more detail about your layout such
as how many beakers used, volumes mixed, actual
dilutions of developer/fixer/hypoclear, etc.
You've got me thinking. Thanks. Jamie"

I'll pin down a few specifics then repost. IMO single
tray processing, reuse or one shot chemistry, is not
for mass production. A great space saver though and
a good method for those doing a few to several prints
per session. Dan