BFA in photography

I got a BAFA(bachelor of arts in fine arts, because I took alot of Spanish and Literature) from a large university here in New Mexico(UNM). I learned a lot of photo theory and history there. I learned how to explain why I shot what I shot, but I came out of school with not a lot of practical life skills. I feel that a course or two on how to exist in this world with photography skills would of done wonders for me. I think that grant writing, some sort of business knowledge, and professional presentation are vital skills for an artist to have. I said grant writing because someday I would love to live the Guggenheim life. Just my thoughts. Good luck with the battle!

jp80874 said:

Welcome Jack. Most of us leave a trail.
I hope our thoughts have helped, but it feels more comfortable to me when we are all up front with who we are.
John

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I always find it a bit weird when someone doesn't want to say who they are when discussing something like this. But I dunno John, if I'm all that comfortable with outing the person like this. Jack had his reasons for not revealing much more than he did and other then the aforementioned feeling that it's a bit weird, it doesn't seem all that important to the discussion.

-Bob

laz said:

You cannot possibly offer a photography degree without including Photoshop and other image manipulation techniques.

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I agree. Just because many of us here don't like Photoshop or digital, doesn't mean that everyone sees photography in the same light. FWIW, I know how to use Photoshop, but I would prefer not to have to use it - using it makes photography seem like work to me, not art.

laz said:

I always find it a bit weird when someone doesn't want to say who they are when discussing something like this. But I dunno John, if I'm all that comfortable with outing the person like this. Jack had his reasons for not revealing much more than he did and other then the aforementioned feeling that it's a bit weird, it doesn't seem all that important to the discussion.

-Bob

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Agreed, this seems more like an attack than the provision of information germane to the discussion.
Celac.

OK,

I admit that I'm weird. I have a BFA in film. I have taken a variety of film journalism, writing, literature, and photography classes. The latest of these classes have been in the past couple of years.

A pet peeve that I have is students showing up for critique with:

A. Nothing. They were too busy. The work was too hard. The camera didn't work. They didn't have time to print. Etc, etc.

B. unretouched, unflattened, crappy prints. Please see the excuses above.

Photography, hopefully, is both craft and art. You have to understand the light meters, strobes, and lenses. You have to be able to load and unload film. You have to understand how to mix chemicals, use an enlarger, and produce a print. You need to know how to retouch and flatten. You need to be able to matte and mount.

You also need to understand the history of photography and art in general.

I recently took and LF class for fun (I work at the University and can take a couple of free classes per semester). In a class of 15 students (mostly juniors and seniors), maybe 4 took it seriously. For most of them LF was the course they didn't worry about. But, they quickly discovered how technically demanding LF actually is.

Anyway, the photoshop classes aren't necessarily bad, but learning PS as a tool can be taught in the same way that one learns about strobes in a Studio Photo class. You learn the technical in class and produce the art on your own.

Mike Davis

I find it fascinating to read threads like this, it really does seem to underline the difference between university education in the USA and the UK. This apprears to be that in the UK pre and post graduate courses are still mainly funded by tax payers, with students making (a recently increased) contribution. When I took an undergraduate course in the early 80s, not only were all my fees paid, but I also received a grant for living expenses etc.

Given this, I believe that all courses in the UK, whatever the subject, are under pressure to prepare the students for 'real life', and indeed many institutions make much of their graduates success at finding employment in fields entirely unrelated to the subject studied, claiming that under/post graduate work teaches students valuable skills in planning, team-work, research etc. I get the impression that the more market-led USA, students have more say in the studies that they (or more likely their parents) are buying, hence demands that Arts courses should solely cover art and leave the practicalities out. Is this correct or am misunderstanding some of the previous comments?

markbb said:

This apprears to be that in the UK pre and post graduate courses are still mainly funded by tax payers, with students making (a recently increased) contribution. When I took an undergraduate course in the early 80s, not only were all my fees paid, but I also received a grant for living expenses etc.

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Unfortunatly an undergraduate education is rarely free in the US. In most states the best that can be done is a system of state colleges where the tuition is kept relativly low. On the federal level there is variety programs one can apply to for grants or loans, what we call Financial Aid. But it is exclusivly need based. You apply and based on a somewhat complicated calculation involving the parents income and anticipated future education expenses (siblings) you either qualify or not. A sizeable portion of the middle class does not qualify for such aid. The choice is then between the state's "public" colleges and universities at a lesser cost, or private ones at a considerably higher cost. Individual private institutions might have some grants available usually based on academic merit or the school percevied need for student diversity.

Given this, I believe that all courses in the UK, whatever the subject, are under pressure to prepare the students for 'real life', and indeed many institutions make much of their graduates success at finding employment <snip> I get the impression that the more market-led USA, students have more say in the studies that they (or more likely their parents) are buying, hence demands that Arts courses should solely cover art and leave the practicalities out. Is this correct or am misunderstanding some of the previous comments?

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There is some small degree of market pressure in the US but not nearly as much as some think. Public institutions are of course more subject to pressure but all in all the US has a very strong tradition of acedemic freedom. (meaning the faculty of the institutions are often the sole decision makers. The question of such a decision is was began this thread)

in fields entirely unrelated to the subject studied, claiming that under/post graduate work teaches students valuable skills in planning, team-work, research etc.

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This is actually quite true. A college education, whatever the field of study does give graduates skills applicable to many fields of endeavor. This is why a college degree is highly valued and used by most businesses to evaluate job applicants.

I could go on and on. But I'll just say that higher education is frighteningly expensive in the US. Even with a rather handsome merit scholarship covering a portion of his tuition our son's education is costing us far in excess of $100k. This is an amount that puts many of us, both parents and students, into considerable debt. (But since the US economy runs on debt the gov. probably thinks this is a good thing!)

-Bob

jmdavis said:

You learn the technical in class and produce the art on your own.

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Good point....

From what I've seen the difference in education between a two-year tech school and a four year college/unversity is the amount of the books students read and think. Comparing the four year college/university to any of the gradschool programs, the difference will be seen in the quality of the portfolios by the students and how they understand their own work. It's just how much of time they can spend for their training.

I think a BFA program is a preparatory course for MFA, for what it sounds, and as long as the students graduate with good portfolios, I don't see any problems to occur.

Digital photo training could be as an option if the students were already self-taught and comfortable of using the digital tools.

Also, teaching mat-cutting and other skills that are used in various areas of art could be a real plus.

I personally think drawing and painting along with photography would be very essential. If not, literature such as poetry goes with it.

up front

John,
I teach absolutely nothing that could be considered commercial. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'm not trying to avoid bein "up front" but perhaps I,m just somewhat of a private person
David'
I'm in the great city of Houston

09-16-2005, 08:40 PM

Clay,I'm in Shady Acres thats the lower end of the Heights. Good luck with that traffic
Severian aka Jack

The first thing I took out was 1000 8x10 and 4x5 negatives . They are in my office in Huntsville.

Sam Houston State University Huntsville, TX
www.shsu.edu

Arts and Sciences

Photography
John,
I teach no commercial photography. I am not avoiding "being up front" Just didn't feel it was necessary to print my resume
Jack
Michael I am a Brooks grad and you are right....

Jack Barnosky was born in Philadelphia and earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the Brooks Institute of Photography in 1974. He also earned a Master of Fine Arts degree from Indiana University. Mr. Barnosky has had 21 one-person and 20 group shows of his work in various places throughout the world. Jack teaches in both the commercial and fine arts areas, and includes a course in alternative processes that is very popular amongst our students.

Welcome Jack. Most of us leave a trail.
I hope our thoughts have helped, but it feels more comfortable to me when we are all up front with who we are.

John[/QUOTE]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful insights. I hope that more people will give their ideas. One thing that was obvious is that their are a lot of different ideas about what a BFA degree is. The problem that is immediate is that after a foundation program which includes 2D and 3 d design etc. There will only be about 12 maybe 13 courses that will be spread out over the students last 3 years. I just do not think that it is possible to include all the suggestions that have been made. I'm not being cynical when I say that the Business school should teach our students business. Thats what they do. Sure there are things that are particular to photography in business but so what. A good business class will be general enough so that fine art students can feel included.At Sam Houston State out Art Department has art history and critical evaluation classes. We have always taught the history of photography but I think that this should be included in the art history. This would open up one more class to make art. Yes Platinum printing is as much process as photoshop.The problem with the digital aspects is how threy are taught.I guess this is an internal problem that should stay internal. I adamently maintain that A BFA is about making art period. If you wish to be a commercial photographer maybe you should try the Texas School at A&M sponsored by the Tx PPA. Irving Penn was a commercial photographer. Avedon was a commercial photographer, but first they were artists.
Jack Barnosky
b. south philadelphia 1947
graduated St Mary elem. 1960
graduated St MAtthews 1964
attended Drexel, St Joes, Temple and West Chester Universities
Married Kathleen 1971
Fathered Jeffrey 1974
BPA Brooks 1974
MFA Indiana University 1986
Taught Ivy Tech Columbus In 1979-1991
Associate Prof Sam Houston State Univ. 1991-present
entered the Zen stream 1990

severian said:

Yes Platinum printing is as much process as photoshop.The problem with the digital aspects is how threy are taught.

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Jack, could you explain what you mean by that? It seems you are saying that because digital is something that is done with programs, keyboards and computers rather then lenses, light sources and trays of chemicals it is somehow not "art"?

"If all the waves of the Zen stream were alike, innumerable ordinary people would get bogged down"

-Bob (entered the Zen stream 1985)

Art

laz said:

Jack, could you explain what you mean by that? It seems you are saying that because digital is something that is done with programs, keyboards and computers rather then lenses, light sources and trays of chemicals it is somehow not "art"?

"If all the waves of the Zen stream were alike, innumerable ordinary people would get bogged down"

-Bob (entered the Zen stream 1985)

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Bob,
If I inferred somewhere that digital wasn't art I never meant to do that. I just dont think that an entire semester should be spent learning every bell and whistle in any process. Ya just gotta teach them digital any program would be invalid without it. Does it really take 16 weeks studying photoshop before students can begin to make personal statements? I've always been tempted to take a beginning b&w class and start at 8am with "this is a camera". By 5pm they could be making enlargements. Maybe i'll do it next semester.With a gassho
Jack

Jack. Thank you.

An area that we haven’t mentioned might be grouped into outside financial influences. Officially it is not part of the BFA, but I believe it to be a very important part of the student’s education. Again my only experience is Akron U. A local benefactor donated the building. It was the largest Cadillac dealership in town. Akron’s Art Museum is going through renovation this year that will more than double it’s size. The Museum and the Art school are about a mile apart. A local family owned advertising business was bought by an English firm for $52 million this year. The family is building a Photo wing in the museum which they will then fill with spectacular photos. In the last three years the Bidwell family has brought seven or eight photographic professors such as Lois Conner, Andrea Modica and this week Thomas Roma. Roma will speak to the school Tuesday. He will meet with the local FOP Friends of Photography group who donate both to the Museum and the school. He will spend a day critiquing each of the Advanced classes. Last year Andrea Modica gave us each assignments based on the work she critiqued and then returned two weeks later to critique the assignments. This is all done with gifts to the University Art Department.

In addition to these general gifts from which everyone benefits the benefactors give a large quantity of small grants in $500 to $2500 increments. The Art students including Photography majors compete for these in juried shows. The Photo winners and runners up can use this money for workshops, photographic trips and specialized studies elsewhere including travel expenses. They are for majors in the different fields so I don’t have a shot at them as a 60+ student, but I have had class mates go to Anderson Ranch and Maine Photo Workshops for week long workshops. Bigger winners have gone to Italy, Czechoslovakia and Africa for photo tours of up to three weeks. The following term the other students see their work either in class or in exhibits. Everyone benefits and I hope many others are motivated.

John Powers

severian said:

Does it really take 16 weeks studying photoshop before students can begin to make personal statements?

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This is actually a very good question that I don't have the answer to. I do know from experience that Photoshop and other digital manipulation software is very complex. It certainly could not be mastered in a day and I wouldn't really be surprized if it did indeed take a semester to gain more than a rudimentry knowledge of what the program can do and be able to create anything original.

I'll ask my son about his digital classwork and get back to you!

-Bob

"I hope this is considered the correct thread for this question. I am currently involved in restructuring a BFA photography program within a fine arts department."
Bait!

Here's what I'd like in a BFA Photo program...

With an attempt to degreeify my photo education on the horizon, I find myself somewhat disappointed with the description of any fine art photo program description I find here in the North Texas area.

If I could just fabricate my own program, here's the broad strokes of what I'd like:

• Context
  • art history
  • psychology, sociology, philosophy
    (your basic liberal arts social cluster...)
  • history of photography
• Visualization and Exposure
  • The Portrait
  • Documentary and editorial photography
  • Architectural photography
  • Product and still life
  • Landscape / Environmental photography
• Processing
  • material composition and darkroom chemistry
  • film processing techniques and sensitometry
  • film toning and retouching
  • Enlarging
  • Contact printing
  • alt processes
  • digital workflow
• Post-Processing
  • print retouching and toning
  • mounting, matting, framing and archival storage
• How to get work and what to do with it when you get it
  • Shooting for/dealing with publications
  • " Galleries
  • Marketing
  • Business essentials
  • Finding and getting grants
• Photo law

...of course, if someone in the North Texas Contingent recognizes this as the program at institution X, boy howdy, let me know.

-KwM-