Beutler's developer prone to airbells?

anyhuus · Aug 24, 2006

After much testing for contrast index and EI, I'm about to get the hang of Ilford FP4+ and Beutler's developer.
However, I seem to have problems with airbells (or circular unevenness in development esp. in even gray areas like the sky that I think are caused by airbells during development). This seems to be more of a problem when developing in a 5-spiral Paterson tank than the 2-spiral one. (I use 35mm film) Even if I give the tank the recommended "rap" on to the table after each agitation.

It seems that the Beutler developer is prone to foaming esp. in large tanks.

Any advice to avoid this?
Fill the tank almost all the way up, to leave as little air as possible? (Won't agitation flows suffer?)

Are there any de-foaming substance that can be used?

aligndont · Aug 24, 2006

This may seem counter intuitive but perhaps worthy of experiment. Try presoaking( although Ilford claims it is not needed ) for several minutes in distilled water with a very minute amount of wetting agent at the same temp as the developer. Developing times will require some extension. Those little defects are so annoying.

pgomena · Aug 24, 2006

Airbells were the reason I quit using Paterson tanks/plastic reels, although many swear by them (I swore at them). Foaming of developer in a tank might indicate leftover wetting agent on reels/tank interior due to poor washing after a prior film developing session.

Peter Gomena

Markok765 · Aug 24, 2006

Do you use the little plastic "stick" that came with your tank? solved those vertical lines and air bells for me. try a roll agitiating with it. 3 turns or the stick each time.

momonga · Aug 24, 2006

Try a pre-soak for several minutes. I know Ilford says it's not necessary, but I nearly always get 'foam spots' if I don't. I use Paterson reels.

anyhuus · Aug 25, 2006

Thank's for the advice.
I didn't think of pre-soaking as an option. (How much longer dev.time do I have to expect?)

The beutler formula contains sodium carbonate (washing soda), maby that's the main culprit?

I also see that sometimes the Beutler formula includes potassium bromide. I presume that is used to avoid fogging when dev.times become long. I do not use it, since my dev. time is 5-7 minutes. I have no experience with the substance, but could the precense of potassiom bromide have an effect on foaming?

dancqu · Aug 25, 2006

anyhuus said:
The beutler formula contains sodium carbonate
(washing soda), maby that's the main culprit?

Certainly not in an alkaline environment. NO acid stop.
Bromide is not a problem, with or with out. Dan

john_s · Aug 25, 2006

anyhuus said:
Thank's for the advice.
I didn't think of pre-soaking as an option. (How much longer dev.time do I have to expect?)

The beutler formula contains sodium carbonate (washing soda), maby that's the main culprit?

I also see that sometimes the Beutler formula includes potassium bromide. I presume that is used to avoid fogging when dev.times become long. I do not use it, since my dev. time is 5-7 minutes. I have no experience with the substance, but could the precense of potassiom bromide have an effect on foaming?

The potassium bromide might also be there to enhance edge effects. I have never heard of it having anything to do with air bells or foaming.

There was a post recently about small circular patches of lower density in negs. I have been doing films for many years but started to get these patches with a film and developer combination that I'd used before with no problem. I then tried *really* hard to prevent the lodging of air bells using agitation and rapping the tank hard enough to be of concern for its safety, but the only thing that worked was pre-soaking for a few minutes. I used plain water. I still don't know what was the cause, but I now know the solution to the problem.

As far as extra time is concerned, I was using a very dilute developer and didn't add any time. I suppose a small percentage would be appropriate. Maybe 5% for a dilute developer.

anyhuus · Aug 25, 2006

Thanks again for further advice.

My next batch of FP4+ will be presoaked.

There was an advice of using the little pin that came with the tank to turn the spirals rather than agitate by turning the tank. Wouldn't one risk uneven development due to bad flow through the spirals? Esp. when 5 spirals are stacked?

(By the way, my agitation pattern is contiunus for the first minute, thereafter 10 sec. per minute. Agitation is turning the tank completely upside down and twisting the tank, both in alternating directions.)

PepMiro · Aug 25, 2006

No problem with turning spiral with little plastic

I've never had a problem using the plastic to turn the spiral.
To avoid uneven development and bubbles, I think the best method is to presoak the film in water during 30 to 60 seconds. Development time has to be increased about 20 or 30 seconds to allow developer to reach emulsion (with a more diluted developer or a high definition one, 30/35 seconds is better; with a solvent developer (ID-11, D76, microphen, ...), 20 seconds is enough.

Gerald Koch · Aug 25, 2006

I see no reason why the composition of a developer should cause or not cause airbells. I would tend to blame the plastic reels. I use the Beutler developer and use only SS reels and tanks and have never had a problem with airbells in over 50 years.

Ryuji · Aug 25, 2006

Anyhuus,

Most of your issue is described here:

Dead Link Removed

I use SS tank with Kindermann reels, and Paterson tanks, but I can suppress airbell/foaming problems by the technique described there. People who have strong preference to one type usually have strong bias in their judgement. It's also that people have great amount of experience with what they like and only a little experience with what they don't like. Factor these in when reading stuff about tanks (and cameras, etc.).

There are differences in the foam-stabilizing properties among chemicals. I have been using a mild defoamer (completely water soluble and won't leave any mark, unlike most other effective defoamers) that also enhances image quality in my current generation ascorbate film developers. They'll be available. I'm also trying to talk them into selling this agent as dry chemical for those who like to experiment, but exact details are not determined.

anyhuus · Aug 26, 2006

Ryuji said:
Anyhuus,

Most of your issue is described here:

Dead Link Removed

I say, this is the first time I've seen such a thorough explanation of why pre-soaking should work. I've already accepted the relatively consistent advice in this thread to avoid foaming with a pre-soak, but without fully understanding why it should work. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I will boldly go and develop presoaked FP4 i Beutler's hereafter

The funny thing is that I use Barry Thornton's variant of Stoeckler 2-bath for HP5+, and have never had problem with patches from foaming or airbell. Could it be that the first bath in a 2-bath dev. also partially fills the function of a presoak?

Ole · Aug 26, 2006

Mind your agitation too - shaking the tank around as a maraca will make anything foam. Invert, wait for the "glug", return to upright. Repeat 3-5 times or whatever you prefer.

With a true 2-bath developer the first bath will just soak into the emulsion, and the second will activate the absorbed developer already in the emulsion. So yes, it sounds reasonable that the risk of airbells would be greatly reduced with a two-bath developer.

I presoak everything.

anyhuus · Aug 26, 2006

Ole said:
Mind your agitation too - shaking the tank around as a maraca will make anything foam. Invert, wait for the "glug", return to upright. Repeat 3-5 times or whatever you prefer.

With a true 2-bath developer the first bath will just soak into the emulsion, and the second will activate the absorbed developer already in the emulsion. So yes, it sounds reasonable that the risk of airbells would be greatly reduced with a two-bath developer.

I presoak everything.

Hi Ole,

Even if I'm aware of the subtle and often overlooked difference between a pair of maracas and a Paterson tank, agitation could of course be an issue )

Jokes aside, I agitate much like you describe. Wait for the "glug", before turning back again. Or in the case of the long 5-spiral tank: until everything is quiet. It sound more like a waterfall inside it. Maybe inverting is not the correct modus operandi for such a long tank - I mean if foaming is inevitable due to the long travel of the airpocket back and forth?

I think that the feedback in this thread is pretty consistent, and that presoaking is the remedy. Also, judging from Ryuji's Wiki, the potential downsides of pre-soaking seems sufficiently insignificant compared to the benefits to adopt your developing standard: presoak everything.

Jim Noel · Aug 26, 2006

The ideas about pre-soaking, agitation, etc. are all good. However, you may still have the problem if the agitationis not sufficient.

The "Glug" is important. If the tank is overfilled the agitation is not as complete as when this big air bubble is allowed to move from one end of the tank to the other.

Load an old roll of film on the reel(s), place them in the tank and with the top off, fill with water until it just covers the reels. Pour this into a measuring cylinder. This is the amount of solution you should use, no more. This will provide you with the largest air bubble to assist with agitation.

Beutler's developer prone to airbells?

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