Beutler - Why two stock solutions?

JPD · Jun 6, 2009

The Beutler formula contains only metol, sulphite and carbonate. Why do we have to mix two stock solutions? Many formulas contain the same chemicals, but makes one stock solution only. Does the Beutler keep better in two solutions? Could one make a one solution Beutler if one uses it within a few days?

Ole · Jun 6, 2009

Most developers keep better in an acidic to slightly alkaline solution, so also Metol. When the carbonate is added the oxidation really speeds up. A low-sulphite developer like Beutler's would die within hours if mixed as a single stock solution.

A way to get around the two-stock "problem" is to make only one, the Metol/sulfite one. When you're getting ready to use it, dissolve the corresponding amount of carbonate in the water first, then add the stock solution directly to that immediately before use.

That's what I do, and it works. Or should I say - it has worked so far.

JPD · Jun 6, 2009

Thanks for the explanation and the suggestion.

I may be experimenting with this developer this summer.

RobertV · Jun 6, 2009

Metol and Sulfite is rather stable and also Sodium Carbonate in demi-water can be kept for a long time.

Beutler (A+B) is a very interesting developer. High definition and high acutance with box speed and only 3 components.

I like it very much with the Efke 25 and Acros 100.

Here an example from the 35mm negative. I made an enlargement of 40x50cm and you can count the stones.

Best regards,

Robert

Efke 25 in Beutler 1+1+10 7:00 Min. at 20 degrees C.

JPD · Jun 6, 2009

Yes Robert, I'm thinking about trying it with Efke 25 & 50 135- and maybe 120-films. The 7 minutes is a bit too short for use with the CombiPlan tank and sheet film, I think. But I could of course put the film in the already filled tank.

RobertV · Jun 6, 2009

I am using 35mm and 120 rolfilm only. Jobo 1510 and 1520 tanks.
You do not need much agitation with Beutler.

I make the Beutler A+B with washing Soda.
Solution A:
1g Metol
5g Sodiumsulfite (sicc.)

Solution B:
5g Sodiumcarbonate (sicc.) or
14,6g Soda (10.H2O Sodiumcabonate)

Both A+B: fill up with 100ml demi-water

It's really easy to make. And all components are cheap. Each film is about 0,05 for the Beutler developer so neglectible to all other costs.

Acros 100 is also very good: 1+1+10 for 7:00 minutes at 20 degrees C. Instead of iso 64 with Rodinal 1+50 you have full iso rate of 100.

Trask · Jun 6, 2009

Robert, just so I follow correctly, you're dissolving each set of chemicals in 100 ml water, so when you're done you have two bottles with one having 100 ml of A and the other with 100 ml of B. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the term "demi-water" -- do you mean distilled water?

JPD · Jun 6, 2009

Demi-water should be demineralized water.

1+1+10 makes 12 parts. That would be 83 ml part A, 83 ml part B and water up to 1000 ml, for one liter working solution.

RobertV · Jun 7, 2009

Demi water is deminiralized water but you can also use destilled water or R.O. (Reverse Osmose) water or even boiled - filtered water because the application of Beutler is not really critical.

You fill up each stock to 100ml with above mentioned water.

For the dilution 1+1+8:
for a 35mm tank with a 250ml volume: 25+25+ fill up till 250ml with regular tap water.
or: 50+50 fill up till 500ml for the roll film.

As already said great results with the Efke films. This Willi Beutler formulae fits in the 50's with the Dr Schleussner/Adox single layer films very well.

JPD · Jun 7, 2009

RobertV said:
For the dilution 1+1+8: ...

It's like with Rodinal. 1+25 and 1+50 solutions are seldom really thought of as 26 and 51 parts mixed together.

julio1fer · Jun 7, 2009

Beutler is my main developer for FP4+. It works even better with Pan F+.

Photo Engineer · Jun 7, 2009

I am in awe of the introduction of new terms. Demiwater. Hmmmm. RO. I use that myself.

The reason is that this is why formulas from 100 years ago or so are so hard to decipher. They read almost in code and are hard to translate. Use of Be (Baume) is common for measuring the concentration of acids and bases, and there are few accurate translation tables existing today. So, please be careful what you use.

PE

Ian Grant · Jun 7, 2009

JPD said:
It's like with Rodinal. 1+25 and 1+50 solutions are seldom really thought of as 26 and 51 parts mixed together.

Ilford generally use I+4, 1+9, 1+19 etc which translate as 1:5, :10, 1:20, ie 1 part made up to the larger number, that's how every one I know uses Rodinal.

Ron (PE) the term is usually Demin in the English speaking world

Ian

steven_e007 · Jun 8, 2009

I've seen a 'modified' Beutler formula in Barry Thornton's book 'Elements'. It is the basic Beutler mix but with the carbonate halved and a few millilitres of Potassium Iodide 0.001% solution added. This is borrowed from Crawley's FX1, I think?

Thing is, the ingredients here are just given as a long list.

Would it still be best to make up two solutions and if so, which one should the Iodide go in? - or at such a low concentration, doesn't it matter?

RobertV · Jun 8, 2009

It doesn't matter. KI improved for a few films the acutance but what I have seen in practice it's a very small improvement for only a very few slow speed films.
Making a concentrate of 0,001% Potassium Ioded is also not very practically.

steven_e007 · Jun 8, 2009

RobertV said:
It doesn't matter. KI improved for a few films the acutance but what I have seen in practice it's a very small improvement for only a very few slow speed films.
Making a concentrate of 0,001% Potassium Ioded is also not very practically.

Actually, I have made the Iodide solution before when I've tried FX1. It really isn't difficult, it is just that after you've used your 3ml - it's deciding what to do with the other 9.997 litres

But yes, I found FX1 a bit of a let down. Also FX2 - which is the one with the tiny amount of yellow dye in it? Can't remember all the details now, it was a few years ago that I tried them out, but I do remember that I felt neither were worth the effort with FP4+, which seemed just as sharp in Ilfosol S straight off the shelf...

As I said in another thread, FP4+ is already a high acutance film, I think maybe something not noted for its edge effect, such as T-Max 100, might show more difference?

Ian Grant · Jun 8, 2009

Pinacryptol yellow

Like you I tried FX-1 & 2 back in the 70's with FP4 and wasn't impressed with either developer, but I think they were supposed to work best with Pan F. I still have the KI solution

Ian

dancqu · Jun 8, 2009

Essentially FX-1 and Beutler's are carbonated metol sulfite
developers. I've used a 1-3-3 ratio, metol-sulfite-carbonate
on film. Good for prints also. For prints that ratio is known
as Ansco 120 or Beer's A. For film those developers
are used very dilute.

For film the actual amount of chemistry used was 0.3-0.9-0.9
grams metol-sulfite-carbonate. Solution volume 500ml. Dan

sergio caetano · May 22, 2020

Ole said:
Most developers keep better in an acidic to slightly alkaline solution, so also Metol. When the carbonate is added the oxidation really speeds up. A low-sulphite developer like Beutler's would die within hours if mixed as a single stock solution.

A way to get around the two-stock "problem" is to make only one, the Metol/sulfite one. When you're getting ready to use it, dissolve the corresponding amount of carbonate in the water first, then add the stock solution directly to that immediately before use.

That's what I do, and it works. Or should I say - it has worked so far.

Ole , please
I've used Willi Beutler for several years.
As I have done:
In 1000ml of hot water I mix 1g of metol, 5g of sodium sulfite and 5g of sodium carbonate.
After 24h I use it .
It seems it has worked, but the question is : do you think it has worked not so well as could be expected ?
Thanks a lot
Sergio Caetano
.

MattKing · May 22, 2020

Well Ole seems to sometimes (very infrequently) take a turn as moderator, I haven't seen him post here for a long time.
It would be nice to hear from him, but I wouldn't count on his answering your question.

mohmad khatab · May 28, 2020

RobertV said:
I am using 35mm and 120 rolfilm only. Jobo 1510 and 1520 tanks.
You do not need much agitation with Beutler.

I make the Beutler A+B with washing Soda.
Solution A:
1g Metol
5g Sodiumsulfite (sicc.)

Solution B:
5g Sodiumcarbonate (sicc.) or
14,6g Soda (10.H2O Sodiumcabonate)

Both A+B: fill up with 100ml demi-water

It's really easy to make. And all components are cheap. Each film is about 0,05 for the Beutler developer so neglectible to all other costs.

Acros 100 is also very good: 1+1+10 for 7:00 minutes at 20 degrees C. Instead of iso 64 with Rodinal 1+50 you have full iso rate of 100.

5g Sodiumcarbonate (sicc.) Or
14,6g Soda (10.H2O Sodiumcabonate)

I do not know the difference between the two elements
I have an office container with soda ash

koraks · May 28, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
I do not know the difference between the two elements

The difference is molecular weight. The decahydrate contains contain 10 water atoms making it around 2.7 times heavier (iirc; I posted a conversion table somewhere on the forum recently) compared to water-free carbonate. The term "soda ash" as far as I know is not clearly defined in terms of which hydrate it is.

Beutler - Why two stock solutions?

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Beutler - Why two stock solutions?

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