Betterscan variable height AN glass holder, which one for Epson 2450? 1mm or 0.5mm?

I've given up the idea of purchasing an Epson V700 (it's still obtainable new in my part of the world, but with a relatively high price tag of USD 900) and decided to improve what I'm getting from my good old Epson 2450.

The purpose is scanning 6x7 MF film, target output dpi = 240/300 (depending on image; lower figure for images with low detail/smooth tones, higher figure for images with high detail/texture...) and target enlargement factor = something like 5-6x.

Question 1: Is 2540 able to match above criteria?

If yes,

Question 2: Film is prone to sag with Epson's OEM MF film holder, I expect that using a Betterscan variable height AN glass holder will improve much the quality of the scans I'm able to get from the 2450. Is that a realistic expectation?

If yes,

Question 3: Which holder thickness should I choose? 1mm (same as OEM holders) or 0.5mm (more play in negative height but much less sturdy)? What is your experience with this scanner? Do you find that you need to decrease the film's height for better scan resolution, or increase it? (That's critical and will help me in choosing the right holder.) Or, does that depend on the particular scanner? (Which means I have to definitely test it myself...)

Question 4: AN glass is effective only when film is scanned emulsion down. (Film curl is always towards emulsion side.) Do you experience any problems when scanning *B&W* negatives emulsion down? (I think Epson's suggestion to do the opposite is to eliminate the differentiated gloss of the emulsion side.) Please note that I will be scanning pyrocatechin stained B&W film...

Thanks in advance,
Loris.

Loris Medici said:

I've given up the idea of purchasing an Epson V700 (it's still obtainable new in my part of the world, but with a relatively high price tag of USD 900) and decided to improve what I'm getting from my good old Epson 2450.

The purpose is scanning 6x7 MF film, target output dpi = 240/300 (depending on image; lower figure for images with low detail/smooth tones, higher figure for images with high detail/texture...) and target enlargement factor = something like 5-6x.

Question 1: Is 2540 able to match above criteria?

If yes,

Question 2: Film is prone to sag with Epson's OEM MF film holder, I expect that using a Betterscan variable height AN glass holder will improve much the quality of the scans I'm able to get from the 2450. Is that a realistic expectation?

If yes,

Question 3: Which holder thickness should I choose? 1mm (same as OEM holders) or 0.5mm (more play in negative height but much less sturdy)? What is your experience with this scanner? Do you find that you need to decrease the film's height for better scan resolution, or increase it? (That's critical and will help me in choosing the right holder.) Or, does that depend on the particular scanner? (Which means I have to definitely test it myself...)

Question 4: AN glass is effective only when film is scanned emulsion down. (Film curl is always towards emulsion side.) Do you experience any problems when scanning *B&W* negatives emulsion down? (I think Epson's suggestion to do the opposite is to eliminate the differentiated gloss of the emulsion side.) Please note that I will be scanning pyrocatechin stained B&W film...

Thanks in advance,
Loris.

Click to expand...

Loris,

Is ordering directly from Epson out of the question? One can buy the Epson V700 directly from Epson for $415 USD, delivered, in the US.

Regrding the 2450, if scanning MF film I think the Epson film holders should be fine as they hold the film ok without much sagging. My experience with the 2450 was that the best plane of focus ranged from about .05mm to 1.0mm above the glass of the scanner.

In addition to the Better Scnning holders another option is the one described by Jeremy Moore in a thread on the LF forum.

"Take a piece of glass and wetmount your negative to it or take a piece of anti-newton glass and tape your negative to it. Put this piece of glass (side with negative facing down) on the scanner with a thin washer in each corner holding it up off the glass.

Make a scan of a small section at hi-res (or a target with lots of detail) and evaluate the result.

Add a washer to each corner (the glass is now supported by 2 washers stacked together in each of the 4 corners). Scan again. Compare to the previous scan. If it's sharper add another washer and scan again. Repeat until adding a washer makes your scan less sharp. At that point remove 1 washer from each corner and you have a good height for scanning on your scanner.

Of course, washers are cheap and readily available, but you could also do it with coins or anything else you want like typing paper.."

Sandy

Thanks Sandy,

I can't buy from Epson US; the import operation fee alone would be something like USD 300! (Not counting shipment cost and 18% VAT which I'm also subject to...)

I experience some sagging but not sure how much that affects my results since I haven't tested extensively...

I won't be wet mounting but will definitely test the focus field using a similar methodology. Thanks for mentioning that bit of info.

BTW, my methodology would be as following (describing it because it seems like a faster/easier procedure, therefore useful for others in the future):

- Cut 2" (~5cm) portion of a cheap plastic ruler
- Put a spacer object with a height of 5mm onto the scanner bed
- Place the ruler on the spacer and scanner bed simultaneously, so that it forms a right triangle
- Scan and see which mm markers (min and max) are sharp
- Do the necessary trigonometric calculations to determine the depth of focus

(I may add a target with more detail - such as high dpi imagesetter film - to the system, in case the mm markers aren't enough to determine fine sharpness differences...)

Regards,
Loris.

sanking said:

Loris,

Is ordering directly from Epson out of the question? One can buy the Epson V700 directly from Epson for $415 USD, delivered, in the US.

Regrding the 2450, if scanning MF film I think the Epson film holders should be fine as they hold the film ok without much sagging. My experience with the 2450 was that the best plane of focus ranged from about .05mm to 1.0mm above the glass of the scanner.

In addition to the Better Scnning holders another option is the one described by Jeremy Moore in a thread on the LF forum.

"Take a piece of glass and wetmount your negative to it or take a piece of anti-newton glass and tape your negative to it. Put this piece of glass (side with negative facing down) on the scanner with a thin washer in each corner holding it up off the glass.

Make a scan of a small section at hi-res (or a target with lots of detail) and evaluate the result.

Add a washer to each corner (the glass is now supported by 2 washers stacked together in each of the 4 corners). Scan again. Compare to the previous scan. If it's sharper add another washer and scan again. Repeat until adding a washer makes your scan less sharp. At that point remove 1 washer from each corner and you have a good height for scanning on your scanner.

Of course, washers are cheap and readily available, but you could also do it with coins or anything else you want like typing paper.."

Sandy

Click to expand...

Loris Medici said:

Thanks Sandy,

I can't buy from Epson US; the import operation fee alone would be something like USD 300! (Not counting shipment cost and 18% VAT which I'm also subject to...)

I experience some sagging but not sure how much that affects my results since I haven't tested extensively...

I won't be wet mounting but will definitely test the focus field using a similar methodology. Thanks for mentioning that bit of info.

BTW, my methodology would be as following (describing it because it seems like a faster/easier procedure, therefore useful for others in the future):

- Cut 2" (~5cm) portion of a cheap plastic ruler
- Put a spacer object with a height of 5mm onto the scanner bed
- Place the ruler on the spacer and scanner bed simultaneously, so that it forms a right triangle
- Scan and see which mm markers (min and max) are sharp
- Do the necessary trigonometric calculations to determine the depth of focus

(I may add a target with more detail - such as high dpi imagesetter film - to the system, in case the mm markers aren't enough to determine fine sharpness differences...)

Regards,
Loris.

Click to expand...

Loris,

The Betterscanning solution works so good it seems to me to be a worth while purchase rather than trying to implement a solution at home.

Don

>>Is that a realistic expectation?<<

Yes, especially if you have limp film. You can always use the taping technique to get it really flat if inverting the film does not work.

>>Which holder thickness should I choose?<<

Most people need the 1 mm. It is very rare that .5 mm is needed but as you can see from Sandy's comment there are a few who could use it.

>>(more play in negative height but much less sturdy)? <<

It still is sturdy but if you don't need .5 mm I rather you go with the 1 mm because I like to use more solid materials whenever possible. Using the glass, it doesn't matter as much now like it did with the T-locks but I still like to build as sturdy as possible.

>> Or, does that depend on the particular scanner? <<

Yes. Very much so. There can be quite a bit of variation in the focus point from scanner to scanner. Especially with the 2450.

>>(Which means I have to definitely test it myself...)<<

Exactly.

Doug

Hi Don,

That method is for determining the focus depth/plane of my scanner. I should determine that first, in order to be sure that the 1mm version will do the job. If best focus is achieved at say ... 0.7mm, then I won't be able to get the most of my scanner with the 1mm holder.

Will definitely order one as soon as I determine my scanners ideal film plane height...

Regards,
Loris.

Don Bryant said:

Loris,

The Betterscanning solution works so good it seems to me to be a worth while purchase rather than trying to implement a solution at home.

Don

Click to expand...

i agreed with loris

Hi All fellows,
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Thanks

Don Bryant said:

The Betterscanning solution works so good it seems to me to be a worth while purchase rather than trying to implement a solution at home.

Click to expand...

I think I'd like to try that solution, but unfortunately his website is uber-confusing. Any idea what to get for the Epson v500? I think it would be the variable height unit (1mm or 0.5mm???) and anti-Newton ring glass? Does this only do MF (I shoot 6x7 and 35mm)?

Tony-S said:

I think I'd like to try that solution, but unfortunately his website is uber-confusing. Any idea what to get for the Epson v500? I think it would be the variable height unit (1mm or 0.5mm???) and anti-Newton ring glass? Does this only do MF (I shoot 6x7 and 35mm)?

Click to expand...

Tony,

It's been a while since I've last visited the better scanning website. Rather than try to answer your question which I'm not qualified to do because of my ignorance of their product line (I'm not a V-500 user) I would suggest shooting an e-mail to the better scanning group and asking them directly.

I think in a lot of ways their products are very similar but there are differences from scanner to scanner which makes the holder geometry unique.

Don

>>Any idea what to get for the Epson v500?<<

On our home page, there is a summary list of the different scanners toward the top of the page. If you click on V500, it will take you to a page that shows the specific products that work with that scanner.

Thanks,
Doug

Loris Medici said:

I've given up the idea of purchasing an Epson V700 ...and decided to improve what I'm getting from my good old Epson 2450.

The purpose is scanning 6x7 MF film, target output dpi = 240/300 (depending on image; lower figure for images with low detail/smooth tones, higher figure for images with high detail/texture...) and target enlargement factor = something like 5-6x.

Question 1: Is 2540 able to match above criteria?

Click to expand...

I believe so, although I have the 3200 which may or may not be similar internally. I suspect your major issue will be focus and then density. For a small investment I recommend you go and buy a Stouffer wedge and scan that. It will give you a good idea on how dark your scanner can penetrate.

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2008/03/using-epson-flatbed-scanners-for.html

based on my findings with that wedge, my 3200 gives sufficient darkness for black and white but will have some problems with the density of C-41 negative

will you be doing mainly black and white, or will you also be doing colour? This question is significant as I have found that using the adjustable scan height will often improve focus while detracting from the proper registration of colours in the layers of the film.

http://home.people.net.au/~cjeastwd/digital/epsonProblems.html

my current thoughts as to why this may be so
http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2008/08/epson-flatbed-film-scanners.html

The Epsons give quite good results when optimised for the green channel (which is what is used when you set to gray scale) and scanning black and white

If yes,

Question 2: Film is prone to sag with Epson's OEM MF film holder, I expect that using a Betterscan variable height AN glass holder will improve much the quality of the scans I'm able to get from the 2450. Is that a realistic expectation?

Click to expand...

As Doug suggests, if you film sags. Mine as it happens does not, but then the dry Finnish air perhaps helps that. I always scan with the emulsion down as this tends to be the direction of curl too. When I scan 120 films I am scanning 6x9 or 6x12 ... here curl is an issue. I purchased the Better Scanning holders for (among other reasons) getting access to a holder which allows me to put in such a length of film. My Epson holders did not allow that with 120

Question 4: AN glass is effective only when film is scanned emulsion down. (Film curl is always towards emulsion side.) Do you experience any problems when scanning *B&W* negatives emulsion down? (I think Epson's suggestion to do the opposite is to eliminate the differentiated gloss of the emulsion side.)

Click to expand...

for my purposes the AN glass is neither here nor there, as I do not get sufficient curl to struggle with, but it sure makes loading and unloading easy. I just place the film on the area and rest the glass down on it.

It does however provide you with two extra surfaces to gather dust (which in my dry air is a significant hassle)

Doug Fisher said:

On our home page, there is a summary list of the different scanners toward the top of the page. If you click on V500, it will take you to a page that shows the specific products that work with that scanner.

Click to expand...

Doug, can you tell me precisely which items and part numbers, and the cost of each, for getting the very best scans of 35mm and 6x7cm negatives and slides from my Epson v500 scanner? I use VueScan if that matters. I'd like the anti-Newton ring glass as well.

Thanks,

Tony