Best Strategy for 2L-at-a-time C-41 Developing

cbphoto · Jan 7, 2013

So the Trebla kit and starter showed up right now (good UPS shipping sync, as they came from different companies). The instructions do call for the starter, and also to make a stock replenisher which is then diluted with starter to make a working solution. Is it safe/advisable to just mix working solution right from the concentrates? I do not have a 10L container!

And has anyone done the math on mixing it that way, so I don't have to suffer through it?

Photo Engineer · Jan 7, 2013

I can say this. C41 developer needs starter, but the RA-RT replenisher for RA4 processing does not.

PE

Paul Verizzo · Jan 7, 2013

Why not just use this Flexicolor SM kit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271108192545?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Using the above, that's $6.40/liter, broken down into nice 2L batches for you.

If you google the kodak part number, there are vendors selling this for $55 and more.

Am I missing something?

cbphoto · Jan 7, 2013

Paul Verizzo said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271108192545?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Using the above, that's $6.40/liter, broken down into nice 2L batches for you.

If you google the kodak part number, there are vendors selling this for $55 and more.

Am I missing something?

The link you posted is developer only, so you still need to drop about another $130 on other components. That's plan B, as I posted about before, but the Trebla kit is significantly less expensive. The SM tank components work out to about $190 for 10L, and the equivalent Trebla is about $95 with shipping. Since the Trebla is discontinued now, the SM will be the next setup I buy, most likely.

Paul Verizzo · Jan 8, 2013

cbphoto said:
The link you posted is developer only, so you still need to drop about another $130 on other components. That's plan B, as I posted about before, but the Trebla kit is significantly less expensive. The SM tank components work out to about $190 for 10L, and the equivalent Trebla is about $95 with shipping. Since the Trebla is discontinued now, the SM will be the next setup I buy, most likely.

Yes, I was looking at developer only.

The other components are pretty cheap and/or mix yourself. Fixer, any kind/brand will do, even old "hypo" based ones. Bleach, probably the most difficult to put together and use with certainty. IIRC, PE has said that the modern ferric EDTA bleaches are used to reduced pollution, especially with the amounts of chemicals labs use. The old ferricyanide bleaches work fine and in home use is no threat to the environment. The Kodak Final Rinse, I can't speak to. MSDS here: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kodak/Flexicolor_Final_Rinse_And_Replenisher.pdf

I appears that all of the homebrew kits use hexamine for the "stabilizer." Another perhaps defective memory nod to PE, but it is not a dye stabilizer like way back, but something to prevent organic nasties from developing - no pun intended - in the dye. I have just completed some research on readily available hexamine and will post soon.

cbphoto · Jan 8, 2013

I haven't seen bleach sold for much less than $90, and I don't intend to undertake mixing my own. Got to leave SOME time for shooting .

cbphoto · Jan 9, 2013

One more question: the Trebla kit comes with 10L worth of developer, roughly 1 gallon of bleach, and 15L worth of fixer. Why so much fixer? I understand that the bleach is supposedly more reusable than the developer, but is the fixer less so? I was not under that impression.

Photo Engineer · Jan 9, 2013

There is roughly 3x more silver halide in a color film than in a B&W film. So, all else being equal, color fixes are exhausted faster than B&W fixes.

PE

cbphoto · Jan 9, 2013

I did not know that. Thanks! I'll do the math and make sure I run out of everything at the same time.

cbphoto · Jan 25, 2013

Quick follow up: I bought a can of wine preserver to use after opening the concentrates for partial quantities. It says it contains Ar, CO2, and N2. Is this ok? Am I correct that I do not need to fill up the empty space in the concentrate bottles, but only need to cover the surface area? Sorry for the basic questions, but I've never used this stuff. Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Jan 25, 2013

DO NOT USE CO2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PE

cbphoto · Jan 26, 2013

Damn. Luckily I am also a wino, so it won't totally go to waste.

So what specifically is the best inexpensive, readily available product for protecting the concentrates?

Paul Verizzo · Jan 26, 2013

cbphoto said:
Damn. Luckily I am also a wino, so it won't totally go to waste.

So what specifically is the best inexpensive, readily available product for protecting the concentrates?

A real wino has no need to save wine............

Wow, I can't believe how much angst has gone into this so-called problem. I suggested freezing it, which has worked fine for my B&W. The technique has worked fine for an author writing in Shutterbug some years ago on C-41 developing. I suggested it above and the only comment was someone saying, "I'm not putting photochemicals in the freezer." To which I never asked, "Why not?" All those barely toxic chemicals gonna jump through your bottle walls and your food bags to intermix or something?

Then there are accordion bottles.

Or just refrigerate.

Or the old standby of a glass bottle and glass marbles.

But if you use a developer at all, i.e., not one shot, it will degrade over time unless frozen.

I've observed many times how a discussion on APUG seems to be more about keeping the discussion going than finding a solution. No pun intended.

cbphoto · Jan 26, 2013

The problem with these threads is that people say things like "nitrogen", which doesn't mean anything to someone looking to just buy a product to solve a problem and not make a science project out of it. It's the lack of definitive specificity and simplicity that keeps these questions coming up.

My freezer is already full, unfortunately, and I have no space for another. Inert gas seems to be the most elegant solution, so I just need a specific product recommendation.

RPC · Jan 26, 2013

I have tried freezing color developers and it caused the ingredients to visibly separate. Then, upon thawing I had to shake it up to make it uniform, further oxidizing it. I don't recommend it. Mixed developers keep a long time if stored unfrozen in full, tightly sealed glass or high quality plastic bottles. That is the best way to store them.

cbphoto · Jan 26, 2013

RPC said:
I have tried freezing color developers and it caused the ingredients to visibly separate. Then, upon thawing I had to shake it up to make it uniform, further oxidizing it. I don't recommend it. Mixed developers keep a long time if stored unfrozen in full, tightly sealed glass or high quality plastic bottles. That is the best way to store them.

It's the "full" part that is difficult if mixing partial quantities, unless you own a bottle store.

Looks like Freestyle is still selling Protectan (which I had a hard time finding before - thought it was gone). Someone also mentioned a while ago that they use butane lighter refills. Can someone confirm that a standard butane spray (like Ronson) contains no other chemicals that should not come into contact with C41 concentrates?

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2013

Freezing causes ingredients to separate or crystallize and the shaking and mixing entrain oxygen and cause deterioration when you are trying to re-dissolve the chemistry.

In plastic bottles, the organics WILL exchange with food! Ever notice that "freezer" or "refrigerator" taste food sometimes takes on when strong food is stored in them? Consider that developer is a strong food with a high rate of exchange. DON'T freeze developer. Probably you should not freeze any of the solutions. Bleach, blix and fix will begin to give your food an ammonia odor and the final rinse is a bacteriostat which should not be ingested but which can also exchange in the freezer.

There are many air displacement methods and gases specially prepared for this. Even winos should know that CO2 is bad for wine. It adds extra acidity and can spoil wine as well as developer. Use a non-CO2 gas mix. Use glass with corks, use accordion bottles, use marbles. Or, use the developer to capacity in one session and toss it.

PE

RPC · Jan 26, 2013

cbphoto said:
It's the "full" part that is difficult if mixing partial quantities, unless you own a bottle store.

I use canning or Mason jars that come in half-gallon, quart, pint and half-pint sizes, which makes that problem easier to manage. And they are relatively inexpensive.

cbphoto · Jan 26, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
There are many air displacement methods and gases specially prepared for this. Even winos should know that CO2 is bad for wine. It adds extra acidity and can spoil wine as well as developer. Use a non-CO2 gas mix. Use glass with corks, use accordion bottles, use marbles. Or, use the developer to capacity in one session and toss it.

PE

I certainly would not have bought it if they listed the ingredients on the site. It's mind-boggling that someone would sell a product that runs exactly counter to its intended use.

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2013

Marbles! Accordion bottles! It is easy if you try to stretch your mind.

PE

cbphoto · Jan 26, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
Marbles! Accordion bottles! It is easy if you try to stretch your mind.

PE

Both are messy solutions compared to simple air displacement. Just need a specific, since I've never done it before. Is butane lighter refill spray safe?

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2013

There are several threads here on air displacement.

PE

Simonh82 · Jan 26, 2013

What about getting the Rollei kit in single units from Maco Direct. 5x1L bottles which can be delivered to North America and which will make 10L of developer. This is good for 200-300 rolls of film.

It probably isn't quite as economical as larger kits but you only have 5 sensible sized bottles to store and the keeping properties of this kit are great.

I'm still using my first 1.5l of working solution 8 months and 30+ rolls of film later.

cbphoto · Jan 26, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
There are several threads here on air displacement.

PE

I've read them all, which is why I am confused. Seems like every suggestion has a dissenting opinion! I'm going to try the butane route and see what happens.

This wouldn't be an issue if the working solutions would keep longer than the 6 weeks that Kodak estimates. Maybe they do in reality, but I'm not comfortable risking it. I could easily mix up 10L and fill up 5 soda bottles, but I will not get through them all in 6 weeks.

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2013

In filled plastic bottles I have kept C41 developer for over 3 month 9unused) and over 6 weeks used!

PE

Best Strategy for 2L-at-a-time C-41 Developing

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