best method of processing fibre base paper

Hello All:I'll be processing about 50 sheets of B&W fibre base paper next week and I have two questions. 1). Which method ,of the various ones out there,is the best to use in terms of fixing and print protection as far as archival keeping is concerned and 2). Is the method of processing and archival print protection dependent on which make of paper I use?.

Thanks in advance,

Doug

The techniques you use to process fibre based paper are not Brand dependent, but rather "weight" dependent. You fix and wash single weight paper for a longer period of time than double-weight paper.

For common double-weight fibre paper (Ilford, Foma, Efke, Kentmere, etc.) After developing and stop bath, fix for 3 to 5 minutes each in 2 fixing baths, one right after the other, then treat in a washing aid such as Kodak Hypo clear (follow instructions on box) and wash for proscribed time. This is my routine. Yours may vary. It is common practice to discard first fixing bath after "so many" prints and move 2nd fixing bath up to 1st position and make fresh 2nd fixing bath. You may use a water holding bath after 2nd fixing bath, and treat all prints together for hypo clear and washing. For true archival processing, you need to test your prints for hypo residue with a test solution, available from common vendors, to ensure your wash is adequate.

You'll need to do a first wash before the Hypo Clear (5-10 minutes). After the Hypo Clear another, final, wash of 10-15 minutes is needed.
For archival purposes, toning in a dilute Selenium Toner is recommended.

I believe that Ilford has done some extensive testing in so far as what is needed to insure "permanence" of both prints and negatives. They have published their recommendations, perhaps on the Ilford site. I am sorry not to be able to provide a direct link for you, but a simple google search should be able to lead you to the most recent Ilford data.

Ed

OK...here you go...from the Ilford-Harman site for their graded FB paper.

Optimum permanence sequence
Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) 1min
or
HYPAM (1+4) 1min
intermittent agitation
First wash Fresh, running water 5min
Washing aid ILFORD WASHAID (1+4) 10min
intermittent agitation
Final wash Fresh, running water 5min
Optimum permanence sequence
with selenium toner
Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) 1min
or
HYPAM (1+4) 1min
intermittent agitation
Toning Selenium toner diluted with *min
working strength ILFORD
WASHAID instead of water,
intermittent agitation
Rinse ILFORD WASHAID (1+4), 10min
intermittent agitation
Final wash Fresh, running water 30min
* Tone the print for the appropriate time to achieve

if you check michael and paula's site they have the workflow down pat..it is the one I use and it works beautifully
Best, Peter

URL/address for that site..? Thank you, Peter.

Mahler_one said:

OK...here you go...from the Ilford-Harman site for
their graded FB paper.

Optimum permanence sequence
Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) 1min
or
HYPAM (1+4) 1min
intermittent agitation
First wash Fresh, running water 5min
Washing aid ILFORD WASHAID (1+4) 10min
intermittent agitation
Final wash Fresh, running water 5min
Optimum permanence sequence
with selenium toner
Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) 1min
or
HYPAM (1+4) 1min
intermittent agitation
Toning Selenium toner diluted with *min
working strength ILFORD
WASHAID instead of water,
intermittent agitation
Rinse ILFORD WASHAID (1+4), 10min
intermittent agitation
Final wash Fresh, running water 30min
Tone the print for the appropriate time to achieve

Click to expand...

That is not the whole story. First, that method has very
limited application. It is best used if one has A print and
needs it in a hurry. I can't imagine any one using the
that method save for that purpose.

Second, the capacity of that one liter one fixer is 10 8x10s.
That is way down from the 40 8x10s possible using the
two bath method. Ilford does recommend the two
bath method. Dan

Hello:Thanks all for responding.If someone could give me the web address for michael and paula it would help a lot.I just read an archival processing method in the Darkroom Cookbook which used Berg Bath after the Selenium toning to remove excess toner and a final treatment after washing with Agfa Sistan of which I have 6 bottles I recently purchased.Any thoughts on this method?.

Thanks again,

Doug

address

just google azo forum for the above persons and it will appear....it is under the writings section....
fix the prints twice at 4 minutes per
selenium tone/I use 3 ounces per gallon for graded paper/azo for about 3 minutes
wash prints for 30 minutes
run through hca bath for 5 minutes
final wash is one hour

Best, Peter

Hello Peter:Thanks for your info and where I can find michael and Paula.Wouldn't washing the paper for one hour weaken the paper fibres?.

Thanks,

Doug

eddie said:

For archival purposes, toning in a dilute Selenium
Toner is recommended.

Click to expand...

At one time selenium toning was associated with
greater LE, Life Expectancy. Why it is not now is
a mystery to me. The little sulfur present years
ago should be an easy addition to our present
day ultra pure selenium toners. Dan

Sorry to inject another question but I was recently given a bottle of Kodak's Rapid Selinium toner, which looks like it was opened but almost none used and the bottle is at least 2-3 years old. Can this still be used or should it be thrown away?

Kevin Kehler said:

Sorry to inject another question but I was recently given a bottle of Kodak's Rapid Selinium toner, which looks like it was opened but almost none used and the bottle is at least 2-3 years old. Can this still be used or should it be thrown away?

Click to expand...

Selenium toner stock pretty much lasts indefinitely, so it should be OK.

On the subject of toning for archival protection, the old advice to use a diute toner, so that there is little or no colour change has been discredited. As selenium toner starts toning in the shadows, and works its way up to the highlights, brief toning in dilute toner does not protect the highlights.

To get protection requires full toning in a stronger solution, which will give colour change in susceptible papers. If colour change is not required, cool or neutral tone papers give less reaction.

For further info, check out the chapter on archival processing in Tim Rudman's book on toning.

snallan said:

As selenium toner starts toning in the shadows, and works
its way up to the highlights, brief toning in dilute toner does
not protect the highlights.

Click to expand...

I've real doubts. So, silver in some areas of the print are
immune to the presence of the selenium atom. And what
could be the reason for that?

I prefer to believe that the highlight silver IS 'toned'
along with the rest of the print's silver. Due to the very
fine character of that highlight silver the 'toning' is less
noticeable. Dan

toning

it is fairly obvious that "new" papers tone quite less than the plder ones used to...I do not have an answer for that but that is how it seems to me...azo type papers do not experience a shift as far as my eye can tell...I just tone for permanence anyway...
Best, Peter

dancqu said:

I've real doubts. So, silver in some areas of the print are
immune to the presence of the selenium atom. And what
could be the reason for that?

I prefer to believe that the highlight silver IS 'toned'
along with the rest of the print's silver. Due to the very
fine character of that highlight silver the 'toning' is less
noticeable. Dan

Click to expand...

This is fairly easy to test. Take a few prints, and selenium tone for a variety of times, then bleach with a standard Ferri/Br bleach.

Here are a couple of examples I have just tried. These are using two test prints from a previous session, photographed with one of those computerised imagey things with a lens on the front.

I tend to use a moderately strong toner, and in this case it was selenium stock (Fotospeed), diluted 1+9. Bleach was 2.5% ferri (10% stock, diluted 1+3), with approx 8g of potassium bromide added to 800ml of working solution. The prints were made on Ilford MGIV RC, developed in Beer's #5.

The first image is the untoned print; the second is the straight toned print (in this case 3 minutes in the toner described); the third was toned for one minute, then bleached for ten minutes; and the fourth was toned for three minutes, and bleached for ten minutes.

As you can see, the one minute toned print has lost pretty much all of the highlight detail, and a lot of the shadow silver has been removed as well. With selenium toning for three minutes, the shadows and the midtones are holding up much better, but the highlights have still gone. I think given five to six minutes in this concentration of selenium toner, even the highlights would be immune to the bleaching.

So, whatever the mechanism underlying the action of selenium toner, the highlights definitely appear to tone last.

(Apologies for some of the wierd reflections on some of the shots! )

snallan said:

So, whatever the mechanism underlying the
action of selenium toner, the highlights definitely
appear to tone last.

Click to expand...

Or bleach first? I think yours may be a special case
of a general. The general be the susceptible nature
of very fine particles, even colloidal. Highlight areas
are little visible at start. They can be lost
in the fixer. Dan

dancqu said:

Or bleach first? I think yours may be a special case
of a general. The general be the susceptible nature
of very fine particles, even colloidal. Highlight areas
are little visible at start. They can be lost
in the fixer. Dan

Click to expand...

Maybe so. Tim would be the guy to ask, he could probably point you at the appropriate literature about selenium and archival toning.

Though if the finest particles were first to react with the selenium to form the selenide, then I think the highlights would remain when attacked with the ferri bleach. I don't think ferri is sufficiently agressive to attack the selenide. Peroxides, or dichromate bleaches, yes, but not the ferri.

In the discussion in his book on toning, Tim mentions that studies show that the larger grains of silver in the shadows are not converted to the selenide, and that shadow toning starts with the smaller grains of silver. That would suggest that the highlights should be toned first. The fact that it is reported that they are toned more slowly than the shadows, and midtones, suggests that the actual mechanism of selenium toning is far more complex than a straight forward fluid phase chemical reaction.

You don't sound experienced with fiber based paper processing. Doing 50 prints in one weekend is quite a bit. Are you doing 50 copies of the same print, or 50 individual prints? If it is the latter, you are very productive.

If it is 50 prints of the same subject, my advice is:

Find the printing sequence with dodges and burns to generate your desired final print. Make notes.

Then expose each sheet, one after another, and store the exposed paper in a paper safe.

Then use single tray processing (several threads on that in APUG) and batch process 8 prints at a time, interleaving them in the tray full of solution. Rinse after wash, and after fix, after toning.

Wash for the appropriate time.

You will need a lot of space to dry 50 prints. I place the wet prints back to back and clip them to a clothesline to dry. I don't pat dry or squeegee them.
You could easily do 6 batches of 8 (and one with 9) and finish in a day.

That is a lot of throughput so I would change out the chemistry to avoid exhaustion. For all that work, it is not worth skimping on $1 worth of fixer.

Hello:Thanks to all for their input on this subject.I will be making 50 prints of one negative.I will be replacing the developer after every 10 to 15 prints just to keep consistency for the whole job.I will be exposing 2 prints along with the rest to use as tests to judge when toning for archival permanence.Thanks to Jerold for that advice.

Doug