Best fixer with 510 Pyro developer

I recently tried 510 Pyro with Ilford HP5+ and Kentmere 400. So far I am liking the results vs the HC110 I normally use. I utilized normal Kodak Fixer and have read it is best to use an Alkaline based fixer with this developer. Looking for suggestions on a fixer to use. Thanks in advance.

TF4 or TF5 should work well.

dabsond, can I ask what adverse effect did you observe with Kodak fixer that prompts you to ask about alkaline fixer, was there a reduction in the stain?

I take it you refrained from using stop bath?

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

dabsond, can I ask what adverse effect did you observe with Kodak fixer that prompts you to ask about alkaline fixer, was there a reduction in the stain?

I take it you refrained from using stop bath?

pentaxuser

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I am going with what I have read about possible reduction in stain. I am getting good details in the shadow areas with reduced grain for both films. I am just wondering if the alkaline fixer would be better.

Thanks.

Any fixer will do. Some things are just as simple as that!

dabsond said:

I am going with what I have read about possible reduction in stain. I am getting good details in the shadow areas with reduced grain for both films. I am just wondering if the alkaline fixer would be better.

Thanks.

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Not sure whether this is a yes or no answer to my question on stop bath. As I understand matters with staining developers it is the acidic stop bath that does the real damage to the stain's benefits.It is not the fixer

Does that mean that an alkaline fixer does not help- well possibly it does not - but the real "villain " in the drama is the acidic stop bath. My understanding is that rapid fixer in not very acidic

Try several water fill and dumps to replace stop bath then any fixer and have a look at the staining. Has it been almost removed? Better still if you have up to now used an acidic stop bath. Don't use it any more but use any fixer and then compare the two sets of negatives to see how much the acidic stop bath reduces the stain

pentaxuser

@dabsond: Zone Imaging FAQ page lists several fixers that they recommend for their 510-Pyro:

pentaxuser said:

As I understand matters with staining developers it is the acidic stop bath that does the real damage

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If you've ever tried bleaching back the stain image you get from pyro development, you'll understand why an acidic stop bath is nothing to worry about. The dyes that make up the stain are extremely persistent. They easily survive an acid stop bath and acidic fixer.

I've used mostly Kodak F-24 (occasionally Ilford Rapid Fix when I run out of hypo crystals) over the years with several different pyro formulas and I've never noticed any issue with the stain. I'd probably stick with a neutral or alkaline fix simply because it washes out easier, but I wouldn't be concerned if an acid fix is the only thing available.

The advice not to use acidic fixers might have become "the norm" because of the relatively common presence of hardening fixers in many darkrooms. Those fixers tend to be relatively acidic. Non-hardening rapid fixers have a much closer to neutral ph.

koraks said:

If you've ever tried bleaching back the stain image you get from pyro development, you'll understand why an acidic stop bath is nothing to worry about. The dyes that make up the stain are extremely persistent. They easily survive an acid stop bath and acidic fixer.

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I have no experience of staining developers but I know of at least one video presenter who otherwise seems to be reliable on processing who advises against a stop bath. I feel but cannot state for certain that I have seen others suggesting the avoidance of an acid stop bath as well

Is this yet another myth that gets quoted as if it was based on real evidence but in fact anyone doing a simple test of using acid stop and then not using acid stop would find that there is no difference to the stain?

Can I ask if you have done this test yourself with a 510 pyro developer and is it possible to show us the results?

I appreciate that you mention trying to bleach back but is this the same thing and are you referring to bleaching back after fixing and washing? Again I have no idea about whether there is any difference in terms of outcome between dev; acid stop; fix and wash and dev; water stop; fix; wash and bleach back

Hence my need to ask questions

Thanks

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Can I ask if you have done this test yourself with a 510 pyro developer

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Yes.

pentaxuser said:

is it possible to show us the results?

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No.

pentaxuser said:

are you referring to bleaching back after fixing and washing?

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Yes. If you do that, you end up with just the stain left by the developer.

pentaxuser said:

Again I have no idea about whether there is any difference in terms of outcome between dev; acid stop; fix and wash and dev; water stop; fix; wash and bleach back

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Maybe I'll work out an example one day, but it's not especially high on my list.

pentaxuser said:

Is this yet another myth that gets quoted as if it was based on real evidence but in fact anyone doing a simple test of using acid stop and then not using acid stop would find that there is no difference to the stain?

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That's my take on it, yes.

Thanks koraks. It sounds as if it is time for all those who use staining and prefer the advantages of an acid stop bath but refrain from using one due to what may be a myth to try an acid stop bath

pentaxuser

Certainly so! Perhaps I'll pick up the glove and do a side-by-side test one of these days.

pentaxuser said:

Is this yet another myth that gets quoted as if it was based on real evidence but in fact anyone doing a simple test of using acid stop and then not using acid stop would find that there is no difference to the stain?

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When you do a search you find a range of advice. A surprising amount is just copy-and-paste from somewhere else. This includes advice that has been superseded and contradicted, but the old advice still does the rounds. An example is the old advice for PMK to save the used developer to resoak the fixed film in order to get more desirable stain: one still sees it recopied, then rediscussed, and so it goes on.

pentaxuser said:

I have no experience of staining developers but I know of at least one video presenter who otherwise seems to be reliable on processing who advises against a stop bath. I feel but cannot state for certain that I have seen others suggesting the avoidance of an acid stop bath as well

Is this yet another myth that gets quoted as if it was based on real evidence but in fact anyone doing a simple test of using acid stop and then not using acid stop would find that there is no difference to the stain?

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I haven't done any formal tests, but I have used several different staining formulas over many years and have used both a water bath and half-strength acid stop bath. Again, I've never noticed any issues with the stain. IIRC, Sandy King said it was okay to use an acid stop and acid fixer with Pyrocat-HD negatives. My many years of using staining formulas leads me to believe that there is a LOT of myth out there in cyber-land. As for acid fixers, Gordon Hutchings in his pyro book uses (or used) and recommends Kodak F-24 which certainly leans more toward the acid side vs alkaline.