bessa 6x9 questions

pellicle · Mar 16, 2008

Folks

after my question on folders, I'm considering probably either a bessa or Moskova5 camera.

I've heard that the difference between the various lenses is not so much, but I think considering shutters I'll go for something later in the run (with more shutter speeds). I would be keen to hear other view points though.

Presently I use 35mm and 4x5, and certainly I'm happier with prints made with the 4x5 although occasionally my Canon 35mm pulls fine images such as this

Dead Link Removed

I don't actually normally consider comparing the two formats as they are so different.

The reason I'm interested in a camera like the bessa is that I'd like to be able to travel lightly taking a (hurm) di#!tal with me and something which I could perhaps record something in higher detail / different 'look and feel' than the 'other' camera.

I can't take the 4x5 backpacking and (extended) traveling as easily, nor can I take as much film as easily as roll permits.

Certainly a Fuji GW rangefinder would be a very ideal alternative, but I am thinking that for less than 1/3 the price of a Fuji I'd might get a camera which is is "sharp enough", lighter and slimmer to put into a day-pack side pocket.

The problem I have with considering buying a medium format camera such as a Bessa is that I'm afraid it might not be much better than my 35mm and just cost more to run. Like perhaps all the disadvantages of a bellows camera with none of the advantages of a roll film camera?

Thanks for your thoughts

ntenny · Mar 16, 2008

pellicle said:
The reason I'm interested in a camera like the bessa is that I'd like to be able to travel lightly taking a (hurm) di#!tal with me and something which I could perhaps record something in higher detail / different 'look and feel' than the 'other' camera.

This is exactly what I do. I travel quite a bit for work, and I carry a d*g*t*l camera for snapshottery and an MF folder for fun. (My main axes are a Wirgin Auta, which is more or less a serious quality camera given the limitations of a prewar triplet, and a Foldex 20, which is just silly but a real blast to shoot with. I've never had a Bessa, but my impression is that the Wirgin is a pretty similar camera.)

The problem I have with considering buying a medium format camera such as a Bessa is that I'm afraid it might not be much better than my 35mm and just cost more to run. Like perhaps all the disadvantages of a bellows camera with none of the advantages of a roll film camera?

I think I can guarantee that a folder won't have "all the disadvantages of a bellows camera" (if by "bellows camera" you mean something like your 4x5). They shoot much more like 35mm than like any LF camera I've met---you pull the camera out, focus, compose, click, and discover later that you did something horribly wrong (OK, your mileage may vary on the last part).

I suppose whether the step from 35mm to MF is huge or not is partly down to your eye and what you're doing with the negatives. To me it's big enough that I barely shoot 35mm any more at all. I haven't really worked out the costs, but the fraction of keepers is clearly higher with MF, which compensates in part.

I will say, though, that having a proper focussing mechanism greatly boosts the fraction of keepers. All my folders are scale-focus cameras, and it shows.

-NT

david b · Mar 16, 2008

Can you wait to the end of the year to see if the Fuji GF670 comes out?

Renato Tonelli · Mar 16, 2008

I have a Bessa 6x9 and although I am happy with it, it took some time getting used to it. in my opinion, You need to shoot at f/5.6-8 to get reasonably sharp images. The shutter speeds are all you will need unless you are shooting high speed action shots. The one thing that took the most getting used to is the framing - it is not exact; it is approximate - perhaps my rangefinder mechanism is out of alignment.
David has a good point: the Fuji GF670 should be worth looking into, although I prefer the 6x9 format to the 6x7.

pellicle · Mar 16, 2008

david b said:
Can you wait to the end of the year to see if the Fuji GF670 comes out?

Hi Dave

from what I've heard from people on the ground there, it'll likely be a 15man en camera (something like $1500) and "by order" only.

also, I'm heading over to India for 3 weeks in May

david b · Mar 16, 2008

Any pricing about the GF670 is only speculation at this point. Heck, we have no idea if the camera will be made yet.

Lots of folks have emailed Fuji, asking for the camera. I asked for a 6x8 format. The Happy Medium.

No matter, have you looking into any of the other Fuji cameras?

pellicle · Mar 16, 2008

Hi There

ntenny said:
This is exactly what I do. I travel quite a bit for work ... and an MF folder for fun.

Ok ... sounds like we're on similar wave lengths here

ntenny said:
I think I can guarantee that a folder won't have "all the disadvantages of a bellows camera" ... you pull the camera out, focus, compose, click, and discover later that you did something horribly wrong (OK, your mileage may vary on the last part).

sounds close to the 4x5 ... you know, stuff like

chatting to somone and pull out the wrong dark slide (you've just exposed at another location
forget to focus
forget to stop down

my first 35mm was an Agfa range finder, so I spend my first 5 years focusing by rangefinder and guessing focus I'm sota used to that. What I'm interested in though is how sharp the images can be when it all goes right

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 16, 2008

6x9--even with a folder with a so-so lens and less than perfect film flatness--will give you much richer tonality than 35mm and a generally different kind of look--shorter DOF for close subjects at wide apertures, and better microcontrast. Film size trumps just about everything else in some regards.

Folders are light and easy to travel with. I carry a Perkeo II 6x6 folder in my pocket or briefcase all the time unless I'm carrying some other camera.

If you like shooting large format, a nice combination for travel is a medium format folder and an ultralight 4x5" like a Gowland PocketView or a Toho Shimo or small folding wood field camera like the Ikeda Anba, with a compact tripod.

sanking · Mar 16, 2008

pellicle said:
Certainly a Fuji GW rangefinder would be a very ideal alternative, but I am thinking that for less than 1/3 the price of a Fuji I'd might get a camera which is is "sharp enough", lighter and slimmer to put into a day-pack side pocket.

The problem I have with considering buying a medium format camera such as a Bessa is that I'm afraid it might not be much better than my 35mm and just cost more to run. Like perhaps all the disadvantages of a bellows camera with none of the advantages of a roll film camera?

Thanks for your thoughts

My thinking is that you get better overall performace from one of the 645 Fuji folding rangefinders than from one of the older folders. The Moscow 4 and 5 cameras are fairly inexpensive and capble of good results, but the lenses are fairly long which make use of a tripod or stopping down a lot a must. Also, the squintly viewfinders on most of these cameras makes it hard to know exactly what you are getting on film. They also tend not to give very good results at close focal distances due to lack of precision in the folding mount and in the calibration of the rangefinder.

Another camera you might want to consider is the Fuji GA645Zi. This is a relatively small auto-focus, auto-exposure camera with a variable focus lens. It is definitely smaller than a Fuji folder but still relatively compact and the variable focal length lens has proven very useful in my work. And image quality is quite a step up from the best 35mm.

Sandy King

pellicle · Mar 16, 2008

Dave

david b said:
Any pricing about the GF670 is only speculation at this point. Heck, we have no idea if the camera will be made yet.

exactly but it sure looks sweet. The modernity of it, and the Japanese manufacture gives me high hopes

No matter, have you looking into any of the other Fuji cameras?

well, I only know about the GS and GSW series ... held a few when I lived in Japan, and thought seriously about this alternative before buying a 4x5.

I find myself coming back to the same arguments which favoured the 120 roll camera back in 2001 I guess I need more than 2 cameras ;-)

david b · Mar 16, 2008

Here are two cameras I've recently purchased.

I've only made enlargements, so far, from the 6x9 and I am rather impressed.

The 645w is not much bigger than a Nikon F4 or F5. It is autofocus with aperture priority. Oh, and it has a built in pop up flash.

give that one a thought too.

ntenny · Mar 16, 2008

pellicle said:
sounds close to the 4x5 ... you know, stuff like

chatting to somone and pull out the wrong dark slide (you've just exposed at another location

forget to focus

forget to stop down

Well, no darkslides, of course, but I guess the equivalent problem is forgetting whether you've advanced the film yet. (My solution is a rigid habit of winding after exposure; supposedly this is poor practice for film flatness, but either I haven't had a problem, or I just don't know what I'm missing.)

Forgetting to focus, yeah, it happens. On the other hand, you can't forget to take the lens cap off, and at least neglecting to focus will give you *some* image.

What I'm interested in though is how sharp the images can be when it all goes right

Well, I believe there are Bessas (Bessae?) out there with Heliars, which ought to be capable of images sharp enough for anybody. I'm more of a "tonality and character" man myself, though, so I may not be the best person to address this point.

For me, though, the big things about folders are that (1) they're there and give you an image when a bulkier, theoretically better camera wouldn't be and therefore wouldn't, and (2) they're just plain fun to shoot with. If I'm really dedicated to getting The Best Image Possible, out comes something with ground-glass focussing---but I'm not going to be walking around the streets of an unfamiliar city with a Bergheil in my back pocket!

-NT

Iwagoshi · Mar 16, 2008

pellicle said:
I can't take the 4x5 backpacking and (extended) traveling as easily, nor can I take as much film as easily as roll permits.

Certainly a Fuji GW rangefinder would be a very ideal alternative, but I am thinking that for less than 1/3 the price of a Fuji I'd might get a camera which is is "sharp enough", lighter and slimmer to put into a day-pack side pocket.

The problem I have with considering buying a medium format camera such as a Bessa is that I'm afraid it might not be much better than my 35mm and just cost more to run. Like perhaps all the disadvantages of a bellows camera with none of the advantages of a roll film camera?

pellicle said:
btw .. if you can, ask them what's the go with the Fuji 6x9 bessa II copy

Okay, I get it now (wakarimasuka), was wondering from the other thread what the deal was.
At Yodobashi et al, I'll definitely check on the Fuji 6x9 Bessa replica, which is this camera, right? or are we talking about another beast? I thought the new Fuji folder was 6x7, not 6x9.

Actually I'm feeling your pain mate, I'm lugging around a full-up Rollei 6006 w/80mm lens, extra magazine, 150mm lens, extra battery, and a laptop.

The Fuji folder and the Apple Macbook Air sounds pretty good about now.

Terry

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 16, 2008

The new folder is likely to be 6x7, and it's not likely to be in production, if it does go into production, for some time yet.

On my most recent trip, New York to Berlin, I brought my Perkeo II 6x6 folder, film and a couple of small accessories, laptop and a folder of papers. Together with my wife and 15 month old son, we carried my tote bag with my work, my wife's tote bag, diaper bag for the baby, and a medium sized rolling suitcase (maximum legal carryon, but we checked it anyway), and that was it for four days. It was nice for a change not to be carrying a big camera bag, and a good thing anyway, since I was working almost the whole time, and the weather wasn't so good, so I exposed exactly one frame of film the whole trip.

pellicle · Mar 17, 2008

Dave

david b said:
Here are two cameras I've recently purchased.

I've only made enlargements, so far, from the 6x9 and I am rather impressed.

does this mean you've got the Fuji rangefinder you were searching for now? I don't see it on your blog?

david b · Mar 17, 2008

I bought a "like new" GSW690III that only had 029 on the counter. It arrived and the focus was off so I got it fixed by a factory trained guy here in albuquerque. So now it really is like new.

Trying to find the GSW680III is next to impossible, but if one ever comes up I will buy it. I recently found a GW680III but the counter was too high and the focus was in question.

I will certainly buy the GF670 if it ever comes to life. Keep your fingers crossed. I am still hoping that it will be a 6x8 but I am being realistic.

P C Headland · Mar 17, 2008

Either camera, if you get a good one, should do fine. A Bessa with a Skopar or better will cost considerably more than the Moskva 5. One thing that some people do not get one well with on the Moskva is the left handed shutter release.

Another camera that you may want to consider, that is lighter and in-between price-wise is the Zeiss Ikonta 524/2. This has an uncoupled rangefinder and comes with Novar or Tessar lenses The Novar is much cheaper, and at f8 or below, you're not likely to see much difference over the Tessar.

pellicle · Apr 1, 2008

first MF camera now in hand

Hi

I now have a Bessa I which I just got. Thanks to everyone for advice, I will post image information as soon as I can.

I've got some images of my new camera on my blog here

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