Beseler/Minolta 45a minus number question

Wisner · May 22, 2019

Hello, I have a question on the 45A head. Sorry for the polarizing head question. Just purchased a 45a to replace my stolen Ilford Multigrade 500 head. I have 50 years of professional experience behind a camera with General Dynamics and NASA but am having a few issues. I have the instruction manual and am working only in black and white.

I have figured out how to determine the proper exposure, then do a ring - around to find the correct contrast. My question is this. On my ring - around, the contrast for exposure 4 is correct. -15 Green and +5 Blue. The enlarger lens is set to F/11 for 4 x 5 film. I am using the B&W mode on A, not AL.

I am making an 8x10 print, the -15 +5 is just a little light but can't figure out how to change the exposure after the ring around. The -15 +5 is grade #2 1/2. The manual I have is from 1988. On page 30 the manual states...

Adjusting the grade of variable contrast paper....
After judging which ring gave the best exposure press the color key to recall that ring number and note the adjustment displayed - mine is -15G and +5 B for exposure #4. Then return to data mode, then using the color and adjusting keys, adjust the displayed exposure data accordingly. When in data mode I can't change the ring-around numbers at all.

I assume the above paragraph means to input the ring-around data -15G +5B in the color mode, am I correct?. The issue, and my question, is once in the color mode I only have access to positive numbers between 0 and 255, I can't seem to figure out how to input minus numbers. This means the data from the ring-around can't be input in color mode and I can't make minor adjustments to the image. Add a little contrast, and add a little more exposure is what I want to do.

So, I would appreciate anyone out there who is happy with this head for B&W that can help me adjust the ring-around numbers, especially how to enter minus numbers like -15?.

I know lots of folks hate this head, I am learning the head and realize, once I learn, then split contrast printing will be very easy for me. Right now just trying to use the head in B&W mode and be able to enter minus numbers so I can adjust the ring-around data.

Please help.

Thank you
Brent.

Kino · May 22, 2019

I have the 1991 manual and these are the pages that might help... or not...

Are these the same?

Kino · May 22, 2019

This is an additive head, so I don't think you can do minus numbers; only offset by positive on the opposite channel(s)...

Wisner · May 22, 2019

Thank you Kino, yes this is indeed an additive head. However, in the manual, showing what setting would create what contrast, Beseler shows a 2 1/2 grade as a -15 Green and a +5 blue. My issue is I can't seem to enter minus numbers. The ring-around shows exposure #4 as the best for contrast, and that is -15 G and +5 Blue. I completely understand your comment as I have printed with single filters, a #58 green and a 47b filter under there enlarger. There isn't a negative number there. The Beseler, however, does show minus or negative numbers all on its own in the ring-around.

Wisner · May 22, 2019

Thank you Kino, your manual is completely different, not even close to mine. I will further read your manual and see if I can see how to set minus or negative numbers.

This is what I did for my first print - I did a test strip, in Black and White A mode, by entering 30 G and 30 Blue and then added 30 to each successive exposure until I reached 120G 120B. I am using 4x5 B&W negatives with a 135mm lens on a Beseler 45 style enlarger. The 120 G and B was the best exposure but flat. So, I pressed Data to do a ring-around. I then built a 10 exposure 8" x 10" easel so I could do the ring-around. The ring-around has 9 different exposures, the #4 exposure was the best of the 9, a little flat and a little light. The number 4 in data mode shows a -15 G and a +5 B, or a grade 2 1/2 half. This is where I am lost.

I am attempting to press the color button and enter the -15G and +5B. My issue is I can't find a way to enter -15 G or any other minus number. If this makes sense to you then please let me know what I am doing wrong. Otherwise, I will read and read again your post to see if I can find what I am doing wrong.

Thank you very much for taking the time to scan and post, I really appreciate it. I really want to use this head, as I can see that when I get to using it for split contrast printing, this head will really shine. Currently just attempting to print in normal B&W printing mode. I have 16 flash tubes so don't think I will have issues down the road.

Even if I just wanted to just enter a 2 1/2 grade, without the ring-around, I could not as I can't enter the -15 G as indicated by Beseler in the 1998 manual; the +5 B is not an issue. Hopefully all of this makes sense to you.

Please see if you can find my error.

Thank you

Brent

mshchem · May 22, 2019

General Dynamics is good preparation for Secretary of Energy, I'm not sure what would prepare a person for the 45a head. I have one that came with a mess od stuff. Sounds a bit like a bug zapper.
Once figured out people love them. I can't run the old HP calculators either, reverse Polish logic. I would make a wisecrack, but I'm trying to be good

Wisner · May 22, 2019

Yes, it is the once figured out that I need. I have most of the knowledge I need for this head. I am just stuck on one part that prevents me from using it. Hopefully there will be a post that gives me the final bit of data I need. The post from Kino is the most promising.

Maybe I should apply for the Secretary of Energy, could I do worse?

mshchem · May 22, 2019

Wisner said:
Yes, it is the once figured out that I need. I have most of the knowledge I need for this head. I am just stuck on one part that prevents me from using it. Hopefully there will be a post that gives me the final bit of data I need. The post from Kino is the most promising.

Maybe I should apply for the Secretary of Energy, could I do worse?

Can't disagree with you on the current wackiness in our nation's capital

You should call Kevin Brown at KHB PHOTOGRAFIX in Ontario. He's very knowledgeable about all things electronic from the darkroom days. He helped me on the bugged Beseler Universal 45 head. Best head Beseler made, also additive and like your stolen Ilford head had a green, blue only for VC. Beseler went broke, no support for the heads impossible to decipher.
I bet Kevin would know how to enter the negative value.
I'm getting along with 2 of the Universal heads, I will keep using until I fail or they do. Then if able I will buy a Heiland head.

There's tons of these Minolta heads out there and they are tremendous heads, I always wanted one. Until I tried to figure it out, and got lazy

MattKing · May 23, 2019

mshchem said:
Beseler went broke

???
https://www.beselerphoto.com/photography-enlargers/

That being said, I agree with the recommendation for KHB.

mshchem · May 23, 2019

MattKing said:
???
https://www.beselerphoto.com/photography-enlargers/

That being said, I agree with the recommendation for KHB.

Matt, Beseler has gone through several changes of ownership, the current owners are a large manufacturing concern that makes all manner of things. They have not supported the older products at all.
Because of educational buyers still buying new equipment Beseler still makes some products. The resurgence of analog has even spurred the development of a new easy to understand LED color head and digital timer. I talked to Beseler about this a few months back, not sure when it's coming.

mshchem · May 23, 2019

mshchem said:
Matt, Beseler has gone through several changes of ownership, the current owners are a large manufacturing concern that makes all manner of things. They have not supported the older products at all.
Because of educational buyers still buying new equipment Beseler still makes some products. The resurgence of analog has even spurred the development of a new easy to understand LED color head and digital timer. I talked to Beseler about this a few months back, not sure when it's coming.

Just checked BH new Beseler Dichro 45SL LED light source. Just 3 dials Y,M,C. a small power supply with a dimmer to control how bright the illumination of the dials.
4300 USD. Without the new timer.

Perfect for educational purposes where you only want filtration and a timer. Pretty sure you could get a nice Heiland setup with color and VC controllers for that or less.

MattKing · May 23, 2019

mshchem said:
Matt, Beseler has gone through several changes of ownership, the current owners are a large manufacturing concern that makes all manner of things. They have not supported the older products at all.
Because of educational buyers still buying new equipment Beseler still makes some products. The resurgence of analog has even spurred the development of a new easy to understand LED color head and digital timer. I talked to Beseler about this a few months back, not sure when it's coming.

I have different expectations of Beseler than I think you do.
I wouldn't have expected Beseler to be in a position to support any of their legacy products that share no components with current offerings, but I do appreciate the fact that they still manufacture enlargers and provide warranties on them.
Even though ownership has changed, they still remain in business and are one of the few remaining sources for new darkroom equipment.

mshchem · May 23, 2019

And double checked still not available.

MattKing · May 23, 2019

mshchem said:
Perfect for educational purposes where you only want filtration and a timer. Pretty sure you could get a nice Heiland setup with color and VC controllers for that or less.

But probably not with a US (or Canadian) warranty - a pre-requisite for most educational markets.

mshchem · May 23, 2019

MattKing said:
I have different expectations of Beseler than I think you do.
I wouldn't have expected Beseler to be in a position to support any of their legacy products that share no components with current offerings, but I do appreciate the fact that they still manufacture enlargers and provide warranties on them.
Even though ownership has changed, they still remain in business and are one of the few remaining sources for new darkroom equipment.

I have no expectations from Beseler. Beseler is simply a brand of Fabricated Products Inc. They make all manner of their own products and do work for others. Someone has spent a few thousand dollars spiffing up the Beseler website. They've apparently designed a hew colorhead but it's been expected for over a year. B&H will put you on a notification list.
www.fabricatedcomponents.com
This is the Beseler Company I talked to a very nice lady when I called about the new head, she asked me how I found out. I informed her I saw it on their website.
They finally ran out of NOS dichro S color heads a little over a year back. We will see if the new one makes it. It's clearly aimed at the education market.

mshchem · May 23, 2019

MattKing said:
But probably not with a US (or Canadian) warranty - a pre-requisite for most educational markets.

Catlabs sells Heiland, they have a warranty, but a 18 year old kid who doesn't know the 1st thing isn't looking for split grade controllers. Best equipment made.

mshchem · May 23, 2019

Colleges go to purchasing and say we want an enlarger. No one else makes them so they get two or three quotes. Get a Beseler. They end up buying a official Beseler part, i.e. light bulb for 110 bucks when it's available for 5 to 15 online. I have 4 Beseler 4x5 enlargers, I love them. Only bought one new, which I sold, 7 Beselers is too many. I paid over 400 bucks for that blue beast in 1973. That was 300 dollars more valuable than my car at the time.

I talked to the head guy at our University a couple years back, they had a boatload of money for new darkroom equipment, couldn't find an "Ilford 500", like head. I don't know what he ended up doing.
The Ilford system, brought up to the LED age would be the best. There simply isn't a market.

Kino · May 23, 2019

Wisner said:
This is what I did for my first print - I did a test strip, in Black and White A mode, by entering 30 G and 30 Blue and then added 30 to each successive exposure until I reached 120G 120B. I am using 4x5 B&W negatives with a 135mm lens on a Beseler 45 style enlarger. The 120 G and B was the best exposure but flat. So, I pressed Data to do a ring-around. I then built a 10 exposure 8" x 10" easel so I could do the ring-around. The ring-around has 9 different exposures, the #4 exposure was the best of the 9, a little flat and a little light. The number 4 in data mode shows a -15 G and a +5 B, or a grade 2 1/2 half. This is where I am lost.

I wonder if you should simply subtract or add the amounts of Green and Blue to your base settings of 120? You would then wind up with 105G and 125B. Have you tried this?

If the print is light, you could then up the exposure in equal amounts of Blue and green; say 110G and 130B and so on...

I am pretty sure this is how the head works: you raise equal amounts of G/B until you get proper density, say 120/120, then you vary the G/B ratio to obtain your proper contrast BUT the total for Green and Blue must equal your initial exposure of 240 total exposure units.

I think the confusingly written manual doesn't spell-out just how they use their math. Like many aspects of photography and lab work, math concepts take on multiple implications in the context in which they are used, and this is often not well communicated in technical writing by engineers. -5 green to a dichro head is a specific setting and -5 green to an additive head is subtract the green from the baseline green exposure; at least that's how I am reading it...

Sorry, I had to hit the hay shortly after posting those manual pages...

I have the entire manual in .zip file format as image jpgs, which were given to me by another user on here who's name I forget (sorry!). I can email it to you if you like.

To send private messages in this forum, click on my picture in any posting and look for "Start A Conversation"; Send me your email and I will send the .Zip file tonight.

I am in the midst of trying to wrap-up work and get ready for a cross-country drive tomorrow, so I am sorry to say I probably won't have much time to study the problem but will try after work today.

Frank

btaylor · May 23, 2019

EdSawyer seems to be the resident expert on the Minolta 45a head. Hopefully he will notice the thread title and pop in. If not, try starting a conversation with him, I am sure he will be able to sort this out. I read this thread with interest. I have one of these heads (actually 3, taking Ed’s advice I bought some complete heads cheap just for the tubes). One day I am going to try to use one! I found the manual and concept intimidating, I have a regular color head that works fine so I am still using that. I do RA4 color printing— Ed praises the efficiency of the Minolta head for color. I’ll read this thread with interest to see what the solution is for these b&w printing questions.

Kino · May 23, 2019

The big difference between the Minolta/Bessler head and any traditional dichroic head is that in the traditional dichroic head, the filters subtract color values from a fixed light source that is independent of the filtration, while in the M/B head the color values are directly coupled to the total output of each color flash tube.

You cannot separate the filtration from the exposure in the M/B head (unless you use supplementary filters under the lens, which defeats the purpose of the head itself), you can only arrive at a proper exposure by using a baseline filtration setting (same as a filter pack) and then vary the color balance by varying the output of each tube to arrive at the total required exposure.

EdSawyer · May 23, 2019

Yes, I do indeed enjoy these heads a lot. I have 6 or 7 of them I think, and some spare tubes. That said I use mine mainly for color and haven't used it for B&W in a while.

Here's all the docs I have about it:

https://mypages.unh.edu/sites/default/files/ems/files/beseler_45a_manual.zip

The abovementioned concept of upping the numbers but keeping the ratio between numbers the same is correct. Higher numbers = increased density. (Though you could probably also stand to open up the lens a little too, f/11 is too far down in my opinion for best results assuming a good lens.)

Generally changing the difference between the green and blue (irrespective of the actual values of the numbers) will control the contrast. So if a net difference of 20 (-15G, +5B) is the right ratio, then keep that difference between G and B, and just adjust the numbers to get the right density. E.g. 85 and 105, or 100 and 120, etc. would all keep the same ratio, but the higher numbers = more exposure/density.

Once you get used to it, it's a great head and way more intuitive than any subtractive head I think. The built-in color analyzer and memory channels and what not are a super nice bonus too.

Hope that helps
-Ed

Kino · May 23, 2019

Thanks, Ed! You are the one who generously provided me with the files!
My memory is poor...

Wisner · May 24, 2019

Thank you to all who responded and gave the best information they have, I really appreciate. I have been doing photography for 50 years and could walk into any darkroom in the world and figure out the equipment. This head, is not intuitive at all and has stumped me. Maybe I am relying on the manual too much, I will just go back to my 50 years of knowledge and throw out the manual. I will have some one-on-one conversations to finalize why the head isn't working for me. Once figured out I think this head will be terrific for printing B&W and split contrast printing for B&W. Again thank you to all for all of your time.

mshchem · May 25, 2019

Wisner said:
Thank you to all who responded and gave the best information they have, I really appreciate. I have been doing photography for 50 years and could walk into any darkroom in the world and figure out the equipment. This head, is not intuitive at all and has stumped me. Maybe I am relying on the manual too much, I will just go back to my 50 years of knowledge and throw out the manual. I will have some one-on-one conversations to finalize why the head isn't working for me. Once figured out I think this head will be terrific for printing B&W and split contrast printing for B&W. Again thank you to all for all of your time.

How did someone steal your Ilford head? Generally I'm not in favor of flogging, but that's a really nice head.
Eye for an eye, head for a head

Wisner · May 25, 2019

I retired from a college as the art department chair. I was asked by my replacement to please give a demo with my Beseler 45 and the Ilford head. I used the head a normal multi-contrast head and then how to split contrast print. The Ilford head is, in my opinion, the easiest to use for split contrast printing. Just push the low contrast button then high and be done.

I brought the enlarger and head to the college I worked at for 15 years, never had an issue so I left the enlarge in the darkroom overnight. By morning the enlarger and head was gone. I have been looking for an Ilford 500 system to replace it, just haven't found one. I purchased the Beseler 45a as a replacement, just not as easy to work with. And yes, flogging would be in order.

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