Beseler lamp delay for printing

paul ron · Sep 9, 2004

We may be on to something... I spoke to Beseler today.

I called Beseler a couple days ago and guess what?.... I got a call today from Steve, a Beseler representative.

Steve has been following our discussions here on APUG, also spoke to Phoebe. He is very familiar with the problem as it seems this isn't the only time this has come up. It's been even more of a concern since the company that made the Vactrol doesn't make them nor a replacement for this part. Beseler has moved it's operation to a new location and they don't have a repair department anymore, but they are willing to help us search for a replacement part.

Steve told me he was consulting an engineer to look at the schematic to answer our voltage concerns and possably come up with a replacement solution. He is also sending me a copy of the schematic so I can asses the voltages to find a part that can be retrofitted instead of a Vactrol which is nothing more than a fancy electronic switch. I feel a simple relay will do teh job just fine but we have to see if there is a reason Beseler chose the neon Vactrol. Maybe there is an idle voltage to keep a circuit hot till it is triggered by a rise in voltage which will trigger another circuit?... I won't know till I see the diagrams.

Once we do find a part, perhaps someone can post some pix of the actual PC board so I can see the solder pads, also see how much room we have in the case to house the replacement part?

Steve, if you are reading this... my hat is off to you and Beseler for a fast responce and your dedicated efforts. Thanks!

g.frost · Sep 9, 2004

Hello Paul, I was just getting ready to email you on this when I came here and found
your update. I also emailed Stephen at Beseler to see if I could get specs on the part.
Beseler is also mailing me a complete copy of the schematics (just emailed me this morning) I have not gotten a chance to dig my Dichro 'S' out of storage yet. I will
get around to this soon and get some info on the measures (physical and electrical)
but was hoping the schematics would provide the more useful information. Yes, once
again Beseler Tech support comes through!

paul ron · Sep 9, 2004

Steve is a nice guy, trying to help as much as he can. Too bad about Beseler not repairing their products, maybe they'll farm it out to independants?

It would be nice to see the PC board, if you can post some pix of it?... I'd be more familiar with the layout and should be able to see exactly where the leads will have to get soldered in.

paul ron · Sep 22, 2004

I have the schematic

Beseler sent me the schematic diagram of the electronics. I see the part you are having trouble with. I have a couple possable solutions which I need some help with before implementing. I need someone to measure voltages to confirm my calculations and also check to see if your board is a revised one or not. It seems there may be a modification the manufacturer made later that may have been done to avoid just this type of failure.

E-mail me at AUTOMAX1@JUNO.COM ???

Phoebe · Oct 14, 2004

Beseler Dichro delay problems

Just a note to the list to let you know that I still have my unit in the shop. However, Paul Ron has kindly send me the schematics he received from Stephen at Beseler. Hopefully, my electronics person will be able to find a fix now. I will keep you updated.

Also, once I have the schematics back I would be happy to make a copy for anyone who needs one.

I have only one extra vactrol so I haven't decided whether I'll keep it or pass it on. Will let you know when all is working.

Regards,
Phoebe

Maine-iac · Oct 16, 2004

Beseler lamp delay

Phoebe said:
I have just set up a used Beseler 23CII which has the Dual Dichro S colorhead. The problem is that the light does not always pop on as soon as it is switched on sometimes causing a delay of over 1 second. I have tested this both with the enlarger plugged directly into a wall socket and run through two different timers. Again, when the timer is started it may activate the light immediately or be delayed.
The previous owner claims he didn't have this problem and I tend to believe him. I had the enlarger in storage for 2 years before finally setting it up. Any suggestions as to where I can begin troubleshooting?

Regards,
Phoebe

I bought (many years ago) a brand new Beseler Universal colorhead for my 4X5 enlarger. From the beginning, I had (and still have) intermittent occurrences of the delay you talk about. Actually, the solution is very simple. I discovered through trial and error that it happened more frequently if the interval between times that I turned the lamp on was longer. For example, if I focused my image with the lamp on, and then allowed more than one or two minutes to elapse before putting the paper in the easel and making the exposure, the delay was more likely to occur. However, if I went straight from focusing/composing to loading the paper and exposing, with no more than 30 sec. to a minute in between exposures, it almost never occurs. Try experimenting a bit to see if this helps your problem as well.

The other thing I noticed over the years was that even in cases where I got the delay, I couldn't tell any visible difference in the print. So I also wonder whether the light stays on after the timer counts down for the same length of time as the starting delay.

MarkO · Oct 20, 2004

Beseler Lamp Delay

Hello, have been following this thread with great interest. I would like to have a copy of the schematics if someone could email them to me, that would be great. I have been noticing the exact symptoms described here with my head. This is the first time I have ever posted anything so I am not sure what the next step is(so fill me in). I would also like to comment on how nice it is to see this medium used to help someone without all the bickering that goes on in some of the other threads and sites. Thanx Mark

paul ron · Oct 21, 2004

Phoebe has the schematics right now. I think she did mention copies will be available after her tech finishes using them.

I was looking at the system and recomended shunting the new style LED optoisolator into the circuit but you wouldn't have any idea what I am talking about unless you can see where it belongs since the electronics are designed in such a way that each part of the voltage stabiliser is a seperate circuit, it's not a simple on/off switch to control the bulb, thus the need for an opto isolator otherwise you'll have problems with color temperatures.

I'm sure the final solution will eventually be posted.

Phoebe · Oct 27, 2004

Hi,

Just an update to the list re my problem with the Beseler dichro lamp delay. I finally have a working unit. Once I gave my electronics guy the schematics he had no problems installing the new vatrol (LED version). Many thanks to Paul Ron for the schematics and Stephen at Beseler for his recommendations. Again, if anyone requires a copy I will be happy to mail them one.

Phoebe

paul ron · Oct 28, 2004

Phoebe, can you have your electronics guy pencil in the new vactrol on the diagrams? I'd like to know how he hooked it in as well?

Do you have a way to make copies of the prints? I may be able to get copies made... let me ask around.

Thanks
Paul, NYC

Des White · Nov 20, 2019

Just reviving this thread in case anyone still encountering this very annoying problem - I bought a dual dichro head, it suffered the delay issue, but I can confirm that installing a new optocoupler - LED model VTL-5C3 solved the problem with no other modification required, as stated by Phoebe's tech years ago. $5 from ebay, not a complicated job, hardest part is removing the old 4 pin coupler from the board without melting anything, just go slow and you'll be fine ... here is the link. Message me if you need any help.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-VTL5C3-xvive-audio-opto-coupler-high-qualityB9/193170231900?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

mshchem · Nov 21, 2019

My stash of the original .

RalphLambrecht · Nov 21, 2019

Phoebe said:
I have just set up a used Beseler 23CII which has the Dual Dichro S colorhead. The problem is that the light does not always pop on as soon as it is switched on sometimes causing a delay of over 1 second. I have tested this both with the enlarger plugged directly into a wall socket and run through two different timers. Again, when the timer is started it may activate the light immediately or be delayed.
The previous owner claims he didn't have this problem and I tend to believe him. I had the enlarger in storage for 2 years before finally setting it up. Any suggestions as to where I can begin troubleshooting?

Regards,
Phoebe

I don't think troubleshooting will help; the delay is inherent and you will just have to compensate for it; but, it should be constant!

AgX · Nov 21, 2019

Ralph, the discussion above showed the cause of delay, a bad electronics part. The way that it got bad, burned out so to say micro neon-bulb, there is no reason to expect the delay being constant or not even becoming infinite.
The german term is Neon Glimmlampe.

Ian C · Nov 21, 2019

I have a Beseler 23CII XL with the Dual Dicro-S head, the same color head as in post 1, with seemingly the same problem. There is about 1 – 1.5 second delay from triggering the lamp via the “EXPOSE” or “FOCUS” switch on the Beseler 8177 audible repeating enlarging timer.

If I use any other timer, the problem disappears. In my case, it’s the timer—not the color head.

GRHazelton · Nov 21, 2019

I've been following this thread with interest. I have a 23C condenser unit, but down the line..... BTW, did anyone try digikey.com for parts? I've used them for a part to fix the Hayward salt generator board on our swimming pool. A thermistor tends to crack, shutting down the unit. Fortunately I have a "bootleg" troubleshooting manual, and soldering skills, from the glory days of Heathkit. Two color TVs, one with VACUUM TUBES!!" Hayward used to have very competent phone service help, no more! Now they refer technical Qs to a dealer. My guess is that they have new liability worries.
Kudos to all who pitched in with really helpful suggestions! Phototrio is wonderful resource.

Kilgallb · Nov 26, 2019

Ian C said:
I have a Beseler 23CII XL with the Dual Dicro-S head, the same color head as in post 1, with seemingly the same problem. There is about 1 – 1.5 second delay from triggering the lamp via the “EXPOSE” or “FOCUS” switch on the Beseler 8177 audible repeating enlarging timer.

If I use any other timer, the problem disappears. In my case, it’s the timer—not the color head.

I had the same issue with my 4x5 Beseler. The older Greylab mechanical With the big clock hands work fine as they use a simple relay. The newer electronic timers (Greylab 545) have a delay. I fixed it by plugging the Enlarger AC meant for the timer into a power bar. I plugged the power bar into the electronic timer and plugged a restive load, an AC adapter that charged my radio into the power bar. This essentially places a load parallel to the Enlarger on off. The resistive load causes the trigger circuit to charge and discharge quickly and the response time returned to normal.

I called Greylab to ask for a schematic for the 545 electronic timer and the flat out refused. So much for service. I had to engineer the circuits myself.

Beseler lamp delay for printing

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency