Beseler 23Ciii-XL 135 enlargement bellows position

bence8810 · Feb 21, 2016

hello,

I just bought this 2nd hand Beseler 23Ciii-XL with a variable contrast head and gave it a try.

I mounted a 50mm lens and tried focusing on a 5x7 piece of paper. I noticed that in order to get the image in focus on the 135 negative I need to go way up with th bellows. It just doesn't feel natural, is there another lens board I can use which would allow the bellows to be a bit more relaxed?

See an image attached.

If I finish printing, should i relax the bellows by stretching them halfway out or I can just leave it all pushed in like in the image? I wouldn't want to hurt the bellows.

Thanks,
Ben

ic-racer · Feb 21, 2016

I think this fits. Is it mentioned in the owner's manual?
Dead Link Removed

bence8810 · Feb 21, 2016

Thank you, I'll look for a recessed lens board then, it should take care of the problem.

A little unrelated, the enlarger doesn't have a red safety filter under the lens. Was that an option on Beselers? I used a Lucky and an LPL enlarger until now (condenser) and they both had the little swinging red filter to block out the light and be able to see the image on the paper without damaging it.

Thanks,
Ben

bence8810 · Feb 21, 2016

Would this lensboard work? It's extended but I was thinking perhaps I could mount it upside down? Would it still take the lens and mount into the beseler?

Thanks,
Ben

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beseler-4x4...sh=item3f5c205434:g:3kUAAOSwQYZWuXOX#shpCntId

Ian C · Feb 22, 2016

Yes the Beseler extended lens board with 39mm hole (8029) will work as a recessed board provided that the outside diameter fits inside the cup.

The standard recessed board places the lens 5/8” or about 16mm closer to the negative than a standard board. You’ll have to use the lens as a handle to insert and remove the board & lens from the receiver. Or you can add a handle to the board if you prefer. Be certain that the hole size is 39mm. This was also made with a 42mm hole (8032) for some older lenses and won’t properly fit a lens with 39mm mounting thread. Some sellers aren't aware of the difference and might not notice that the "39mm" lens board they have for sale is actually 42mm.

The extended board used “upside-down” as a recessed board places the lens even closer to the negative by the thicknesses of both the formed cup and that of the of the lens board for a total of about 7/8” or about 22mm closer than a flat board.

I have a 40/4N EL Nikkor in recessed orientation in the extended lens board on my 23CII. The bellows compress solidly preventing the use of this lens on a flat board. This allows making 16” x 20” prints on the standard-column 23C enlargers in vertical configuration.

There is a list here of some Beseler lens boards and other components (many are long discontinued but can be found used on eBay and elsewhere):

http://www.oresteen.com/bess23c.htm

Rick A · Feb 22, 2016

bence8810 said:
Would this lensboard work? It's extended but I was thinking perhaps I could mount it upside down? Would it still take the lens and mount into the beseler?

Thanks,
Ben

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beseler-4x4...sh=item3f5c205434:g:3kUAAOSwQYZWuXOX#shpCntId

I have that lensboard and cups I'll sell you for $10 plus postage.

destroya · Feb 22, 2016

bence8810 said:
A little unrelated, the enlarger doesn't have a red safety filter under the lens. Was that an option on Beselers? I used a Lucky and an LPL enlarger until now (condenser) and they both had the little swinging red filter to block out the light and be able to see the image on the paper without damaging it.

Thanks,
Ben

i bought a new old stock 23ciii and yes it did come with a swing out red filter

bence8810 · Feb 22, 2016

destroya said:
i bought a new old stock 23ciii and yes it did come with a swing out red filter

Hello.

Mine looks like this below the lens board. It's the Diffuser variable contrast head, might that be why it's not on there?
I think the first half of the filter holder (mounting bracket) is actually there?

Thanks,
Ben

destroya · Feb 24, 2016

ben,

it looks like you are missing a piece. my enlarger has a swing out arm that holds the filter under the lens. it plugs into the little hole that you have in yor picture that logically looks like something should go in it. you could try calling beseler and see if they sell the part. its called the under lens filter holder. it holds a standard 52mm camera filter, at least thats what i use

here is a link to a store in canada that sells it. maybe you could find one closer to you

http://store.khbphotografix.com/Und...for-Beseler-23C-and-45M-series-Enlargers.html

bence8810 · Feb 24, 2016

Thanks a lot for the help, managed to find it on EBay with Ian's help and some further negotiation with the seller to ship overseas.

Lens board is coming too from Rick so I should be all set.

Amazing forum, thanks a lot everyone!

The recessed lens board will pretty much hide 3/4th of my lens and I won't be able to see the aperture values I think.
Anyone has any trouble with that? I know some people just leave it on one setting but with my negatives I don't think I can do that. Meter less Leica M3 isn't exactly the weapon of choice for someone who wants perfect exposures every time.

I was thinking I could count the clicks (2.8/4/5.6/8/11/16) and just operate like that. Any thoughts?

Also - just came to me - with the recessed le aboard will the swing out filter still work? Lens will be about 22mm above to where it normally would be... Hope the image still goes through the filter...

Thanks,
Ben

bence8810 · Mar 6, 2016

Hi all,

Rick sent me the lens board and 3 cups with it (Thanks Rick) but unfortunately none of them fit the 39mm thread.
My original flat lens board has the 39mm mount that the lens just screws into.
The cups Rick sent me are of a different size and don't seem to have any threads in them. How is one supposed to mount a lens into a lens board without a thread? I am sure it's just me missing something...

On the other hand if any one has a cup with a 39mm thread I'd love to buy it from you. The lens board I got from Rick will work, I just need the cup that is bolted to the board with a 39mm thread.

Thanks,
Ben

MattKing · Mar 6, 2016

Many boards are un-threaded. One uses a retaining ring ("jam nut") to hold the lens to the board.

bence8810 · Mar 7, 2016

MattKing said:
Many boards are un-threaded. One uses a retaining ring ("jam nut") to hold the lens to the board.

That sounds good - so the one cup that's slightly larger might actually work!
Where does one go for such a "jam nut"?

Thanks,
Ben

MattKing · Mar 7, 2016

bence8810 said:
Where does one go for such a "jam nut"?

Here is an example: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Schneider-Kr...025676?hash=item2a5f3660cc:g:d18AAOSwKtlWkLRz

That is a fairly high quality version.

The last few I bought were cheaper, made in China versions.

bence8810 · Mar 7, 2016

MattKing said:
Here is an example: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Schneider-Kr...025676?hash=item2a5f3660cc:g:d18AAOSwKtlWkLRz

That's great - thanks for the tip. That seller is even in Japan which helps with the speed of shipping.

The last question is then will I be okay with a lensboard and a cup that is slightly larger than 39mm? The worry is obviously the chance of the lens not being absolutely centered.

If anyone had a 39mm cup, please let me know.
Thanks,
Ben

MattKing · Mar 7, 2016

bence8810 said:
That's great - thanks for the tip. That seller is even in Japan which helps with the speed of shipping.

The last question is then will I be okay with a lensboard and a cup that is slightly larger than 39mm? The worry is obviously the chance of the lens not being absolutely centered.

If anyone had a 39mm cup, please let me know.
Thanks,
Ben

I made a point of looking for an example in Japan .

When you say that the cup (cone) is "slightly larger than 39mm" are you saying that the threads on the lens slip through the hole, but the body of the lens is too thick? That is the way it is supposed to work - the retaining ring screws on to the threads and tightens the lens to the cone. There should be very little play side to side.

If you centre it by eye, it should be within Beseler tolerances.

bence8810 · Mar 7, 2016

Hi again,

I might have been a little too quick with my assessment and one cup that I thought was too big might actually be what I needed? It is bigger than the lens' mount but only by a millimeter or 2. Is this still ok or I better have a smaller cup cut to fit exactly? I am just worried by having the lens not exactly centered. As I use the lens as a handle to install and remove the lens board itself, it might move even if I originally use the nut to center the lens.

Thanks,
Ben

John Koehrer · Mar 7, 2016

That bit of a gap is pretty normal.

MattKing · Mar 7, 2016

I agree with John.

That potential variation from perfect centre is unlikely to matter, given the fact that the lens needs to cover a much larger area on the negative. If you are concerned, you could always use some small wedging material (toothpick?) to ensure centring.

bence8810 · Mar 7, 2016

Thank you both - I guess I am off to a good start here then and many thanks once again to Rick for the board.
I did actually got what I asked for (in terms of the board) and the concern on my end was only due to my lack of experience. Apologies for the false alert.

I will try to source that ring locally from a shop before buying it off of ebay.

Ben

bence8810 · Mar 8, 2016

Just bought this for around 3USD. What do you think, will it work?
It's a stepper ring from L-mount 39mm to 42mm.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00CVK4B7A/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A local shop suggested I buy this since no-one seems to carry what I was looking for.
Hope it'll put an end to this issue.

What wrench should I get to tighten this or can I just hand tighten it?
Thanks,
Ben

Ian C · Mar 8, 2016

Your mount appears to have a 42 mm clearance hole. The “N” version EL Nikkor as shown in the photo of post #19 has a flange surface that is 42 mm diameter and is raised 0.6 mm above rear base of the lens as you face it.

The 39 mm female to 42 mm male adapter won’t work properly on an “N” series EL Nikkor in this case. The flange surface of the lens will enter the clearance hole and the thin edge of skirt of the rear of the plastic lens barrel will rest on the lens mount. When the retaining ring is tightened the force applied to the plastic skirt can break it. Even if it doesn’t, this is a bad idea and not a proper mounting.

The outside diameter of the threaded shank of the lens is 38.90 mm. The correct clearance hole in a 39 mm lens board is 39 mm.

For example, I measured a Beseler 39 mm extended mount (to be used inverted as a recessed mount). The hole diameter is 39.12 mm.

I then measured a 39 mm mount for my Omega B66XL. The hole diameter is 39.04 mm.

Both of these lens mounts provide the proper fit for a lens with 39 mm Leica thread. Due to the 42 mm diameter of the flange face of the “N” series EL Nikkor it’s imperative that the hole be smaller than 42 mm. Think of the flange face as a “washer” with inner diameter of 39 mm, outer diameter of 42 mm and thickness of 0.6 mm, except that it’s formed as part of the solid aluminum of the base of the lens. This is what must bear against the lens mount as the retaining ring is tightened.

bence8810 · Mar 8, 2016

Thank you Ian - I am going to look for a 39mm cup then, better not mess the lens up. Also will file the 39mm to 42mm converter I bought today into a cupboard somewhere deep so I won't see it...

I just did an enlargement of 55x38cm (20x24 paper cut on one side) and the time was 30 seconds at f4. What if I go wall mount? This variable contrast head gives really weak light. With my previous condenser head this would have been 15 seconds at f8. Is this normal or do people have some tricks to shorten the time?

Thanks,
Ben

bence8810 · Mar 27, 2016

Dear all,

I thought I'd update this thread as I have potentially solved the problem with the board and cup Rick sent me and the 39mm conversion ring I bought from Amazon Japan. Despite the gap between the lens' mount and the cup's opening, I think I managed to center the setup and it seems to work.

This is what it looks like in the cup:

And this when mounted under the bellows. The bellow isn't compressed too bad when focusing with the 50mm anymore and I think this was exactly what I wanted so things are good all over again! Thanks for all the help.

The lens' aperture can be turned easily and the values can be read just fine as the lens didn't go too far in so that it would be hidden.

Ben

paul ron · Mar 27, 2016

nice job!

Beseler 23Ciii-XL 135 enlargement bellows position

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