Berlin Dagor 168mm

Russ Young · Jan 29, 2007

I've been using a Berlin Dagor 168mm on my 2x3 Horseman VH and have begun to wonder about it's past. Mounted in a dial-set Compur shutter, and the Goerz serial number is 418xxx. Any idea of its age and what image circle is possible?
Great to have a pool of experts at hand! Thanks.
Russ

buze · Feb 10, 2007

I have been doing a bit of reading about this particular lens, and apparently it will cover 8x10, and it has to be from before 1926 (date where Goertz was merged with Zeiss). That serial number /might/ be from the early 20s.
However it seems obvious your lens is not in it's original shutter. The one I have (320xxx) appears to be: a "compound" air-regulated that still works perfectly !

My lens displays some sort of multicolored "coating"; however it can't be since it predates coating by about 20 years.. I've been wondering if this "color" cast is coating added later on, or just the glass developing this naturaly...

I haven't had the opportunity to test the lens (it lacks a flange, it was glued on the board it came with) but from my reading, they are said to be excellent.

Roger Hicks · Feb 10, 2007

Russ Young said:
I've been using a Berlin Dagor 168mm on my 2x3 Horseman VH and have begun to wonder about it's past. Mounted in a dial-set Compur shutter, and the Goerz serial number is 418xxx. Any idea of its age and what image circle is possible?
Great to have a pool of experts at hand! Thanks.
Russ

Dear Russ,

Mine's in a Compound too; s/n begins 345... I use it on 5x7 inch/13x18cm with movements and I'm pretty sure it covers 8x10 (I've not tried), but I know it doesn't cover 12x15 inch (I have tried). It's one of the best lenses of all time, and still amazingly good today.

I don't wish to impugn your knowledge but are you sure it isn't in a Compound? If you're not familiar with old LF shutters, you might not notice. If you are familiar with them, I apologize.

Cheers,

R.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 10, 2007

My 168mm ser. iii Dagor is s/n 279599 and it was remounted by some previous owner in a Rapax shutter. It does cover 8x10", and that also makes it a very handy lens for architecturals on 4x5", when you need all the front rise you can get.

PHOTOTONE · Feb 10, 2007

I think a number of German lenses (actually thousands) were acquired as spoils of war by Burke & James and were coated and sold thru the Burke & James lens bank right up to the 1970's. If anyone has more concrete info on this, please add. These would all be pre-WW2 lenses, brand new, that were coated and sold.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 10, 2007

PHOTOTONE said:
I think a number of German lenses (actually thousands) were acquired as spoils of war by Burke & James and were coated and sold thru the Burke & James lens bank right up to the 1970's. If anyone has more concrete info on this, please add. These would all be pre-WW2 lenses, brand new, that were coated and sold.

Yes, I believe this is true. I don't know that they were all coated, though B&J did in fact do aftermarket coating. My impression is that the B&J "Berlin Dagors" have a different style of engraving than the real ones, and they may not have the "ser. iii" designation that the old ones have.

PHOTOTONE · Feb 10, 2007

Of course it has always been possible since the adoption of coating in general to have an older lens coated. Is it possible that B&J acquired a ton of raw unmounted lens element sets that they coated AND mounted? If so, they would have done their own engraving.

Ian Grant · Feb 10, 2007

Well let's not forget that great US lens manufacturer Goerz Am. Optical, well US after the brothers had become US citizens before the first world war and their father was still a German citizen & camera and manufacturer!

Goerz AM Optical, factory coated some of their earlier lenses after WW2. Well at least they coated my Dagor 12"

Ian

PHOTOTONE said:
Of course it has always been possible since the adoption of coating in general to have an older lens coated.

buze · Feb 10, 2007

Isn't it possible for glass to "irise" a little and give the (external) impression of coating ? The lens I have is a Series III C.P Goetz Berlin, not a B&J, and the shutter is german too, so I don't think it was an american lens.

But it does have some "color reflections" on it, and the glass is slightly yellow/golden...
Considering the fragility of early coatings (Leitz!) I'm surprised that lens would have been coated.... and managed to keep it on all that time!

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 10, 2007

Yes, this natural oxide on the glass is usually called a "bloom," and is what led to the discovery of coatings.

kirkfry · Feb 11, 2007

I have a pre WWI Zeiss 210mm Tessar that is in a Compur Dial set that I think is the original shutter. I would not assume that just because it is a dial set compur that it could not be the original shutter. Kirk

Harrigan · Feb 11, 2007

PHOTOTONE said:
I think a number of German lenses (actually thousands) were acquired as spoils of war by Burke & James and were coated and sold thru the Burke & James lens bank right up to the 1970's. If anyone has more concrete info on this, please add. These would all be pre-WW2 lenses, brand new, that were coated and sold.

I have heard this as well but can not confirm it. I do know B&L received the Zeiss index of photograhpic lenses as spoils the war. This was translated from German by Mertle days before he passed away. This index contains thousands of pages of optical lens designs that were of value at the time militarity and otherwise.

Roger Hicks · Feb 11, 2007

kirkfry said:
I have a pre WWI Zeiss 210mm Tessar that is in a Compur Dial set that I think is the original shutter. I would not assume that just because it is a dial set compur that it could not be the original shutter. Kirk

Dear Kirk,

I wondered about this too, and did a little idle research (Internet only). The earliest date I've been able to find for the introduction of the dialset Compur is 1912. I have no idea how reliable that date is, but it chimes well with the impression I had always had, viz. that the dialset antedated the Great War. This seems likely as (again based on memory) rimset replaced dialset in the late 1920s.

Cheers,

R.

Ole · Feb 11, 2007

The dial-set Compur is not described in my 1910 book, but the Compound is. So 1912 seems likely.

I think the rimset came in around 1931, judging from my Voigtländer plate cameras...

buze · Feb 12, 2007

Here goes mine; freshly polished on it's new custom lensboard, ready to go for quite a few more years of service, I hope!

Of course, it's raining like hell today...

Russ Young · Feb 13, 2007

Thanks everybody. Yes, indeed, it is a lovely lens but I'd never shot it on anything larger than 4x5. Now after David's comment I'll mount it on a 8x10 and see what happens.
cheers,
Russ

wm blunt · Feb 13, 2007

Russ,
Greetings from Missouri "Grape Country". That lens might make a nice 4x10 lens!
Wm Blunt

jimgalli · Feb 13, 2007

Buze' nice photo illustrates one of the weaknesses of the Compound and Compur dial set shutters. The cable release socket is easily knocked off and you see these old shutters with all sorts of aftermarket repair receptacles. The original one was a bulbous looking chrome piece that is peened into the housing. As to the tale of the Berlin Dagor's we need to get Kerry fired up to research and present us with some real facts.

Berlin Dagor 168mm

Russ Young

buze

Roger Hicks

David A. Goldfarb

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PHOTOTONE

David A. Goldfarb

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PHOTOTONE

Ian Grant

buze

David A. Goldfarb

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kirkfry

Harrigan

Roger Hicks

Ole

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buze

Russ Young

wm blunt

jimgalli

Berlin Dagor 168mm

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