Bergger the company

markbau · Sep 18, 2019

This may be off-topic but who made the Zone VI fibre paper? I seem to recall that it was stated it was made by a French company, was it Bergger?

Dali · Sep 18, 2019

markbau said:
This may be off-topic but who made the Zone VI fibre paper? I seem to recall that it was stated it was made by a French company, was it Bergger?

Guilleminot. I wish I could find some at a reasonable price for lith printing...

markbau · Sep 18, 2019

Dali said:
Guilleminot. I wish I could find some at a reasonable price for lith printing...

I thought that the Zone VI paper was far and away the best graded paper I ever used, superb stuff!

Henning Serger · Sep 18, 2019

wyofilm said:
Usually when party A hires party B to outsource the manufacture of something (toll-manufacturing?), party A knows and specifies exactly what they want.

It's different concerning film and photo paper: Generally the manufacturers make offers and explain what they can do. And the (potential) customers can decide if such a product make sense for them.

wyofilm said:
Ilford doesn't sell any film product like Pancro 400, so rebranding is out.

Please read the posts accurately. Pancro 400 is not made by Ilford, but by InovisCoat. That is why "Made in Germany" is printed on the boxes. And the source was obvious right from the market start some years ago. No secret. Because InovisCoat is the only German film manufacturer offering such film and toll production environment.

Best regards,
Henning

wyofilm · Sep 18, 2019

Henning Serger said:
It's different concerning film and photo paper: Generally the manufacturers make offers and explain what they can do. And the (potential) customers can decide if such a product make sense for them.

Interesting. Such a model might be a good way for long held, but unmarketed film designs to see ... er ... the light of day (pun intended).

Yes, I did mix up paper/films and Ilford/InovisCoat. Probably won't be the last mistake I make.

Many of us wondered about Berrger and how a seemingly small company could offer high quality products. Now we know.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 18, 2019

Henning Serger said:
It's different concerning film and photo paper: Generally the manufacturers make offers and explain what they can do. And the (potential) customers can decide if such a product make sense for them.

Please read the posts accurately. Pancro 400 is not made by Ilford, but by InovisCoat. That is why "Made in Germany" is printed on the boxes. And the source was obvious right from the market start some years ago. No secret. Because InovisCoat is the only German film manufacturer offering such film and toll production environment.

Best regards,
Henning

It would be interesting to know whether InovisCoat would be able to manufacture an APX 100 product presumably with the participation of Adox.

AgX · Sep 18, 2019

Inovisoat from the their start declared not to enter the film market other than as toll-manufacturer.
Adox is just budding as independant film manufacturer thus there is likely not to much urge to employ Inoviscoat for that other than maybe the emulsion design. Actually Adox already had Inoviscoat work for them.

Henning Serger · Sep 18, 2019

AgX said:
Adox is just budding as independant film manufacturer thus there is likely not to much urge to employ Inoviscoat for that other than maybe the emulsion design.

That is a bit too short-sighted view on a very, very complex topic (but I cannot go into further detail because of NDA).

In general:
Don't waste your time on wild speculation what the real, original film manufacturers could do. I know from five manufacturers that new film products are in the R&D pipeline, both colour and BW. Timeline is short to mid term.
The real manufacturers are reacting to the increasing demand.

Best regards,
Henning

removedacct1 · Sep 18, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Their papers have been designed and are produced by Harman technology / Ilford Photo.
Best regards,
Henning

I've done a comparison between Bergger's Warmtone FB VC paper and Ilford's Warmtone FB VC and find them pretty much identical.

DREW WILEY · Sep 18, 2019

I've repeatedly heard they're somewhat different. I haven't tried the Bergger WT yet, but for a number of months, including today, have printed the Bergger Neutral Tone in the same developer as Ilford label papers, and can categorically state it's NOT the same as any Ilford or Harman label paper - and I've used em all. It's a premium product in its own right, significantly better in certain respects, in my opinion, than either Ilford Classic or Cooltone. It can be tweaked either neutral or cold. But the box is marked, made in the UK, so I presume it's a custom brew product made by Ilford specifically for Bergger.

JensH · Sep 18, 2019

markbau said:
I thought that the Zone VI paper was far and away the best graded paper I ever used, superb stuff!

Hi,

I would say the same for the Guilleminot Special Prestige paper of the early 1990s! Graded, wunderful tonality, thick 300 g/m3 base, and such a beautiful surface. The best cold paper I ever used.

Best
Jens

DREW WILEY · Sep 18, 2019

The ole Brilliant Bromide graded had the deepest DMax of any paper I've ever used after toning. But the deep values went off a cliff a lot faster than other papers, at the expense of shadow separation. It also had an almost 3d look and superb micotonality in the highlights due to the very high silver content. I found it less versatile than Seagull G, but the cat's meow for certain images.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 19, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
I've repeatedly heard they're somewhat different. I haven't tried the Bergger WT yet, but for a number of months, including today, have printed the Bergger Neutral Tone in the same developer as Ilford label papers, and can categorically state it's NOT the same as any Ilford or Harman label paper - and I've used em all. It's a premium product in its own right, significantly better in certain respects, in my opinion, than either Ilford Classic or Cooltone. It can be tweaked either neutral or cold. But the box is marked, made in the UK, so I presume it's a custom brew product made by Ilford specifically for Bergger.

Interesting, as I've been put off trying the Bergger papers in the past, partly due to claims here that it is fairly indistinguishable from the Ilford Classic paper.

JensH · Sep 19, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
The ole Brilliant Bromide graded had the deepest DMax of any paper I've ever used after toning. But the deep values went off a cliff a lot faster than other papers, at the expense of shadow separation. It also had an almost 3d look and superb micotonality in the highlights due to the very high silver content. I found it less versatile than Seagull G, but the cat's meow for certain images.

Hi Drew,

the same for GSP, now that I read your words... Agfa Brovira was easier to use.

Best
Jens

esearing · Sep 19, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
Interesting, as I've been put off trying the Bergger papers in the past, partly due to claims here that it is fairly indistinguishable from the Ilford Classic paper.

There are differences and you can bring then out by adjusting chemistry a bit or by toning. Warmtone Bergger papers are slower and require more exposure, then you can use a dilute Ansco 130 1:2 or 1:3 and really alter their tone.
Not going to see much difference if using the middle of the road developers unless you bleach and tone/redevelop.

Bob Carnie · Sep 19, 2019

markbau said:
I thought that the Zone VI paper was far and away the best graded paper I ever used, superb stuff!

It was OK as a cold tone paper I much preferred Ilfomar and Ectalure

CMoore · Sep 19, 2019

Bob Carnie said:
It was OK as a cold tone paper I much preferred Ilfomar and Ectalure

What was that paper that was so popular.....was it called Polytone or Poly-Warmtone... something like that.?
Maybe it was an Adox product.?

AgX · Sep 19, 2019

Poly-Warmtone was made by Forte and since long is a product in development at Adox.

miha · Sep 19, 2019

Some info on (mostly) discontinued papers can be found here: http://www.plumeltd.com/artzone/paperzone/paper.htm

DREW WILEY · Sep 19, 2019

Well, no sense pining and whining too much about graded papers we can no longer get. I can't speak for Bergger Warmtone yet, in comparison to the truly superb Ilford MGWT, but if I take the Neutral version, soup it in 130 to full dev, then tone it in gold chloride, I actually get a deeper more neutral cold black than Ilford Cooltone even in amidol. Some have called it a good replacement for Polygrade V; but to me it seems more like a VC reincarnation of classic Seagull G (not the anemic Seagull VC). Plus I don't have the headache of inconsistencies in the highlights which plague both Cooltone and Classic if you don't work very fast fully immersing them. I never had that kind of problem with any other papers, and never with MGWT. It's a fairly well known issue, which is why the local camera store still tries to secure stocks of the ole lesser MGIV for their darkroom rental and teaching purposes, lest students get prematurely frustrated. Bergger is more expensive, so I use the Ilford papers too when appropriate. But they're not cheap if sheets get thrown away due to subtle streaks in the sky. With Cooltone, every box also seems to have a few sheet with incurable zits, as if the emulsion was wholly missing there. I've seen that issue with now discontinued Harman Fineprint too. MGWT is in a different league, in terms of quality. So too is the Bergger paper I've used so far. I'm not a one paper guy. I tailor individual shots to specific papers, developers, and toning regimens. Sometimes I want more punch, sometimes less. And I'm fussy about final image color.
So it's not just about which paper might be hypothetically better than another, but how well it suits a given image.

markbau · Sep 19, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Plus I don't have the headache of inconsistencies in the highlights which plague both Cooltone and Classic if you don't work very fast fully immersing them. I never had that kind of problem with any other papers, and never with MGWT. It's a fairly well known issue, which is why the local camera store still tries to secure stocks of the ole lesser MGIV for their darkroom rental and teaching purposes, lest students get prematurely frustrated. Bergger is more expensive, so I use the Ilford papers too when appropriate. But they're not cheap if sheets get thrown away due to subtle streaks in the sky. .

Do tell us more about this alleged problem with Classic. I've been using the stuff since its release and have never had any sort of problems like you describe. IMHO Classic is a much better paper than IV, which itself was a fantastic paper.

DREW WILEY · Sep 19, 2019

Yes, it's a better paper than IV; so is Cooltone. Richer DMax, far better highlight gradation, way more toning potential. Nothing "alleged" about the problems. They're chronic, every single batch of these two particular products I've ever bought. The buyer at the camera store won't use anything himself but MGWT due to this issue, even though they almost exclusively sell Classic for its lower price point. I get my papers not only locally but from the usual big sources too. Right now, I'm experimenting with briefly prewetting the paper on my squeegee board at the end of the sink with a hose prior to development, then very quickly immersing the whole print and spreading developer as fast as possible; similar quick thorough technique in stop and fixer steps. You're not likely to have any issues with small sizes of paper or images without significant open highlights like skies. But bigger prints are harder to immerse all at once, evenly. Finicky. And like I already stated, it's a problem I've never encountered before, on anything other than these two specific papers. I'm not discouraging anyone from using these papers, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite. But it is a relevant point when discussing options, which now includes Bergger.

markbau · Sep 19, 2019

Maybe I've never seen it because I never print bigger than 11 x 14, many of my images have large areas of even tone like sky areas. Sorry to hear of your troubles.

CMoore · Sep 19, 2019

Has anybody else had the Same/Similar problem(s) with Ilford Paper.?

AgX · Sep 20, 2019

CMoore said:
Especially where Europe is concerned, i am always interested in what happened to a Company/Products during and right after WW2.

Back to your initial question...

In Europe there were countless manufacturers of photographic paper and a great number who made films too. Founded in mother's kitchen by tinkerers (eg. Gevaert) or in an office by investors (eg. Agfa) or by government decision (soviet firms). After the war most countries had film manufacture of their own. However in Western Europe the facilitation of international trade, the emergence of Kodak, the rise of new-Agfa and of Gevaert and their later merger brought pressure on the smaller firms. Another factor was the introduction of modern colour film and paper, its offer influenced the appearance of a manufacturer at least on the non-industrial market and furthermore was a means to gain higher profits. Several manufactuers tried themselves on that but only few could keep their films in the market until the end of the millenium.

Bergger the company

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