Bergger Products

Aurelien · Apr 5, 2007

Hi all,

I asked for Mr Gerard about the availability of Bergger product in the future, due tu the forte closure.

He told me that none of his products will be discontinued, because of a materiel transfer in another plant, and because of the knowledge of people in this new plant (probably Foma).

We can even guess a better quality of films because of a better quality control in Foma than in Forte.

But I think products "made by Foma", even if they have the same specifications as the one "made by forte", will be a little different.

Aurelien

BarryWilkinson · Apr 5, 2007

That's good news, many thanks for the update. I look forward to testing them.

Barry

GeorgesGiralt · Apr 5, 2007

Hi !
Having done comparison on Forte papers versus Bergger, I say that, FOR ME, they were identical. Just re-badged. So if they switch to Foma (or Slavich as I've heard) it will be a huge change. Even if Foma try to duplicate the now extinct Forte formulas, the product will be wayyyy different.
I do not trust Mr Gerard comercial hype, as he said to a friend of mine that the 4 boxes of 8x10 film WAS NOT defective at all and HE was the culprit. (all known people (to us) using the same batch of film had trouble...) but as usual, YMMMV ;-)

Fotohuis · Apr 5, 2007

You all will be surprised what will be possible for an overall R&D order which has been given from our partners Bergger, Moersch and our Fotohuis to keep up some important photo products Europe- and worldwide.

It will be just a matter of time and patience to see the results of a commitment which have been made with a major manufacturer in Europe.

Best regards,

Robert

PS. Whishing everybody a nice Eastern week end!

jstraw · Apr 5, 2007

I hope the next generation of Bergger products, made by whoever, are wonderful and are around for a long time. I continue to operate on the premise that an expectation that the Forte products will be duplicated is a recipe for disappointment. I plan to evaluate any new product in terms of it's own attributes and not whether or not it's the same as something else.

David A. Goldfarb · Apr 5, 2007

I agree with jstraw on this, and I hope that the new organization will follow the lead of Kentmere, which has had to refomulate some of their papers as paper base became unavailable--they simply discontinued the product, explained why it had been discontinued, and announced a new product with a new brand name.

Aurelien · Apr 5, 2007

My only hope: less curly films... Please Mr Gerard make an effort

aldevo · Apr 6, 2007

This sounds promising and I am grateful for the update.

Still, I am left with one fundamental question:

Will the replacement products that carry the Bergger name simply be re-labeled versions of the Foma products we can already buy today, or will they be Foma's attempt at attempting to replicate the previous line of Bergger products that until recently were produced by Forte?

The latter case is certainly preferable - though I acknowledge that true duplication of the earlier Forte-produced products would be impossible on a different coating line.

Can anybody answer that question?

Aurelien · Apr 7, 2007

Well I can't answer in a sure way, but I can tell you something.

A R&D departement was built with the association of Bergger, Moersch and Fotohuis. The goal: to replace all Forte and Made by Forte products. I don't know if Bergger products were re labelled Forte ones, but if these products are now made in another plant, it will need a few technical development, to get the closer as possible to forte products.
My fear is about film. I don't know if they will be Foma films or real new films. But it will be easy to see it: Foma Films are blue!

Amund · Apr 7, 2007

Aurelien said:
But it will be easy to see it: Foma Films are blue!

Not all Foma films are blue. I use Foma 200 in 4x5/5x7/8x10, none are blue.

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 7, 2007

Foma films appear blue if you don't give a proper pre-wet before the development cycle. I use their 200 extensively and not a single sheet has been blue by the time it comes out of the fix.

David A. Goldfarb · Apr 7, 2007

The blue seems to be in the rollfilm base.

Aurelien · Apr 7, 2007

Yes I forgot to precise that 120 films are blue. I don't know the others...

aldevo · Apr 7, 2007

Aurelien said:
Well I can't answer in a sure way, but I can tell you something.

A R&D departement was built with the association of Bergger, Moersch and Fotohuis. The goal: to replace all Forte and Made by Forte products. I don't know if Bergger products were re labelled Forte ones, but if these products are now made in another plant, it will need a few technical development, to get the closer as possible to forte products.
My fear is about film. I don't know if they will be Foma films or real new films. But it will be easy to see it: Foma Films are blue!

Thank you, that's good to know. I feel very confident, based on personal experience, that Bergger's BPF 100/200 films were identical to Fortepan 100 and 200. A BPF 400 film was also marketed in some parts of the world, but I never used it. It has been suggested that most Bergger papers had Forte counterparts, but I have not used Bergger papers extensively and cannot comment.

It has been suggested that Foma's ISO 100 and 800 films (the latter now discontinued) made extensive use of Agfa's APX technology. I do not have enough personal experience with Foma films to form an opinion on this matter.

We will have to wait and see what the Fotohuis/Moresch/Bergger alliance can deliver. I, for one, am very grateful they are making the effort.

Aurelien · Apr 8, 2007

Aldevo, I agree with you on a point: BRF200 =Fortepan 200, I can add that BRF 400= Fortepan 400. But I am sure: BRF 100 is NOT Fortepan 100. They are very different. They do not answer in a similar way to colours, and Forte 100 is much more grainy (grain is the same as old very fast film, quite like recording...)

aldevo · Apr 8, 2007

Aurelien said:
Aldevo, I agree with you on a point: BRF200 =Fortepan 200, I can add that BRF 400= Fortepan 400. But I am sure: BRF 100 is NOT Fortepan 100. They are very different. They do not answer in a similar way to colours, and Forte 100 is much more grainy (grain is the same as old very fast film, quite like recording...)

You must be correct. In fact, Bergger's recommended developing times for BRF 100 are different than those published by Forte for Fortepan 100. Clearly different films.

Fortepan 100 is, as you state, very grainy. Curiously, my experience with BRF 100 was that it was also very grainy.

I last used BRF 100 at least five years ago (it is not often available in the USA). I suppose it's possible that Bergger originally had Forte manufacture this film only to switch to another producer.

In any case, you must be correct that in 2007 they are very different films.

Aurelien · Apr 9, 2007

In fact BRF 100 did not exist in Europ before summer 2006. Maybe they use to deal with forte, but film was very bad quality. So they may have turned to other manufacturer. I don't know which one. It may not be Foma because the base of the film is so much different than fomapan 100. Ex-Orwo filmotec? Efke? Agfa Gevaert? I don't know... And Gerard doesn't want to tell me

aldevo · Apr 9, 2007

Aurelien said:
In fact BRF 100 did not exist in Europ before summer 2006. Maybe they use to deal with forte, but film was very bad quality. So they may have turned to other manufacturer. I don't know which one. It may not be Foma because the base of the film is so much different than fomapan 100. Ex-Orwo filmotec? Efke? Agfa Gevaert? I don't know... And Gerard doesn't want to tell me

I think Gerard can be forgiven. He's probably plenty busy again these days.

Yes, both BRF 100 and 400 are relatively new. Yet, I'm certain there was a Bergger-labeled ISO 100 film available in the 1990s. Bergger 135 and 120 film bases are not imprinted with the product name a la Kodak or Ilford so it's difficult to be 100% certain what film was used - unless careful notes are kept.

If I remember correctly, the original products were manufactured by Guilleminot up until around 1992. The name returned around 1995 when Bergger products appeared (Bergger = Boucher + Gerard) in the form of products manufactured by Forte and others. In any case, Bergger has quite a "legend" surrounding it - but even today nobody seems to know the whole story. Except Boucher and Gerard.

I believe I last used the ISO 100 film around late 1999 and it might have been outdated stock. In any case, it was given to me by an overseas friend and I did not purchase it from a retailer in the USA. The film was sent to be in the foil wrappers (no box) so there was no expiration date available.

FilmoTec certainly sounds like a logical source.

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