Bergger Pancro 400, anyone?

McDiesel · Mar 26, 2022

@markjwyatt the grain pattern really works for these images, especially the 1st one!

radiant · Mar 26, 2022

markjwyatt said:
I have been metering at 320 and developing in HC110B for 400. Seems like Pancro400 has a broad toe and the shadows can be tricky. I like some of the results though.

Can you describe how you digitized these? I see XT-2 in EXIF, so are these macro shots of negatives or from prints?

The grain looks a bit scanner grain to me, a bit digital.

removedacct1 · Mar 26, 2022

I've used Pancro 400 for several years now, and this is what I have observed:

- this is not a 400 ASA film. I rate it at 125 and only then do I get what I regard as optimal negatives.
- the film base + fog level is very high, no mater how you process the film
- the base material is excessively curly, making it difficult to scan (I'm talking 120 rolls, not sheet film)
- in smaller formats, the grain is very coarse compared to a true 400 ASA film like Tri-X, and it tends to be very clumpy and uneven, again compared to Tri-X.
- the film behaves well in Xtol, and Pyrocat HD, and can be even better (finer, more even grain, better tonality) when developed in Bergger's own BER49 developer, but its expensive and hard to find (try Freestyle)

Do I like what it's capable of? Yes. It can deliver exceptionally nice tonal gradation, which is important to me. Is it more work than I'd like, to get a good result? Yes.
Is the grain acceptable? That depends. I consider the grain coarse enough in 120 format to be barely acceptable, and in 35mm its horrible. In sheet film sizes, its perfectly acceptable, as it becomes imperceptible.

a couple examples of images made on Pancro 400, both 8x10 inch negatives:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51693254128_22b1ee1374_h.jpg

and: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51418363375_25d7d1f257_h.jpg

Although I like the images I get made on Pancro 400, its not very likely that I will include it as a staple of my film arsenal now, simply because its practically vanished from the US marketplace. Neither Blue Moon, nor Freestyle, nor B&H currently has any inventory in any format. The lack of availability makes it an even less appealing option right now. Too bad, because the sheet film format is very nice, with aforementioned caveats.

markjwyatt · Mar 26, 2022

radiant said:
Can you describe how you digitized these? I see XT-2 in EXIF, so are these macro shots of negatives or from prints?

The grain looks a bit scanner grain to me, a bit digital.

I digitize the negatives with my XT-2 mounted on a Durst slide copier using an 80mm enlarging lens. The grain may not look perfectly natural because it is digitized. The full image starts at around 6000x4000 pixels, but what I present on Flickr is usually 2048 pixels on the long side.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 26, 2022

paulbarden said:
I've used Pancro 400 for several years now, and this is what I have observed:

- this is not a 400 ASA film. I rate it at 125 and only then do I get what I regard as optimal negatives...
- the film behaves well in Xtol, and Pyrocat HD, and can be even better (finer, more even grain, better tonality) when developed in Bergger's own BER49 developer, but its expensive and hard to find (try Freestyle)...

In post #3 of this thread you described EI 160 and PMK pyro results. Are your new EI and developer recommendations a result of experience over the last 11 months or do you find both combinations equally good?

Freestyle sells ADOX ATOMAL 49, which is the same as BER49 and not too expensive, especially in the larger size which might prove more useful when developing any quantity of 8x10 sheets:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/120521-Adox-Atomal-ATM-49-Powder-Film-Developer-To-Make-1-Liter

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/120525-Adox-Atomal-ATM-49-Powder-Film-Developer-To-Make-5-Liters

paulbarden said:
...Is the grain acceptable? That depends. I consider the grain coarse enough in 120 format to be barely acceptable, and in 35mm its horrible. In sheet film sizes, its perfectly acceptable, as it becomes imperceptible...

I concur completely.

paulbarden said:
...a couple examples of images made on Pancro 400, both 8x10 inch negatives:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51693254128_22b1ee1374_h.jpg

and: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51418363375_25d7d1f257_h.jpg...

Were those PMK or BER49 developed?

paulbarden said:
...Neither Blue Moon, nor Freestyle, nor B&H currently has any inventory in any format. The lack of availability makes it an even less appealing option right now. Too bad, because the sheet film format is very nice, with aforementioned caveats.

If one seeks 8x10, FOTOIMPEX has stock available. I've found shipping from there to the U.S. very reliable lately, with transit times of two weeks or less:

https://www.fotoimpex.com/films/bergger-pancro-400-203x254-cm-8x10-inch-25-sheets.html

FOTOIMPEX even has stock of 11x14:

https://www.fotoimpex.com/films/bergger-pancro-400-279x356-cm-11x14-inch-25-sheets.html

markjwyatt · Mar 26, 2022

paulbarden said:
I've used Pancro 400 for several years now, and this is what I have observed:

- this is not a 400 ASA film. I rate it at 125 and only then do I get what I regard as optimal negatives.
- the film base + fog level is very high, no mater how you process the film
- the base material is excessively curly, making it difficult to scan (I'm talking 120 rolls, not sheet film)
- in smaller formats, the grain is very coarse compared to a true 400 ASA film like Tri-X, and it tends to be very clumpy and uneven, again compared to Tri-X.
- the film behaves well in Xtol, and Pyrocat HD, and can be even better (finer, more even grain, better tonality) when developed in Bergger's own BER49 developer, but its expensive and hard to find (try Freestyle)

Do I like what it's capable of? Yes. It can deliver exceptionally nice tonal gradation, which is important to me. Is it more work than I'd like, to get a good result? Yes.
Is the grain acceptable? That depends. I consider the grain coarse enough in 120 format to be barely acceptable, and in 35mm its horrible. In sheet film sizes, its perfectly acceptable, as it becomes imperceptible.

a couple examples of images made on Pancro 400, both 8x10 inch negatives:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51693254128_22b1ee1374_h.jpg

and: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51418363375_25d7d1f257_h.jpg

Although I like the images I get made on Pancro 400, its not very likely that I will include it as a staple of my film arsenal now, simply because its practically vanished from the US marketplace. Neither Blue Moon, nor Freestyle, nor B&H currently has any inventory in any format. The lack of availability makes it an even less appealing option right now. Too bad, because the sheet film format is very nice, with aforementioned caveats.

I noticed the curl (and fog) in 120 a few years ago. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fuji-acros-and-bergger-pancro-400.162832/#post-2124400

From more recent experience I have to say the 35mm is not as bad in curl (there is some), and fog seems much less.

markjwyatt · Mar 26, 2022

Auer said:
Lovely shots Mark, thanks for sharing,

McDiesel said:
@markjwyatt the grain pattern really works for these images, especially the 1st one!

Thanks @Auer and @McDiesel !

lecarp · Mar 26, 2022

Sal Santamaura said:
In post #3 of this thread you described EI 160 and PMK pyro results. Are your new EI and developer recommendations a result of experience over the last 11 months or do you find both combinations equally good?

Freestyle sells ADOX ATOMAL 49, which is the same as BER49 and not too expensive, especially in the larger size which might prove more useful when developing any quantity of 8x10 sheets:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/120521-Adox-Atomal-ATM-49-Powder-Film-Developer-To-Make-1-Liter

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/120525-Adox-Atomal-ATM-49-Powder-Film-Developer-To-Make-5-Liters
I concur completely.Were those PMK or BER49 developed?If one seeks 8x10, FOTOIMPEX has stock available. I've found shipping from there to the U.S. very reliable lately, with transit times of two weeks or less:

https://www.fotoimpex.com/films/bergger-pancro-400-203x254-cm-8x10-inch-25-sheets.html

FOTOIMPEX even has stock of 11x14:

https://www.fotoimpex.com/films/bergger-pancro-400-279x356-cm-11x14-inch-25-sheets.html

I have been trying to order the 8x10 from Fotoimpex for some time now, when I try to check out I receive a message stating my order cannot be filled, only 2 boxes available.
Like Paul, if a reliable supply is not going to be available it is really not workable. The U.S. distributor (rep) has no answers nor does Freestyle.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 27, 2022

lecarp said:
I have been trying to order the 8x10 from Fotoimpex for some time now, when I try to check out I receive a message stating my order cannot be filled, only 2 boxes available.
Like Paul, if a reliable supply is not going to be available it is really not workable...

It seems you'd find it workable for at least two boxes.

markjwyatt · Mar 27, 2022

lecarp said:
...The U.S. distributor (rep) has no answers nor does Freestyle.

I talked to the proprietor of Don's Photo Equipment in Dallas, and he was told by his distributor it was coming soon (I think he expected Bergger in April). That was the beginning of March.

Pat Erson · Mar 27, 2022

I assume Le Duc (owner of Bergger) gets a BIG batch of films being made by InovisCoat (Germany) and finished by Ilford then he can spend the following year or two selling it on world's markets.
Imo the Covid delayed the launch of the new batch but apparently things are moving on.

removedacct1 · Mar 27, 2022

Pat Erson said:
I assume Le Duc (owner of Bergger) gets a BIG batch of films being made by InovisCoat (Germany) and finished by Ilford then he can spend the following year or two selling it on world's markets.
Imo the Covid delayed the launch of the new batch but apparently things are moving on.

I'm sure that global supply chain problems have made things worse, but in the 5 years I have been using Pancro 400, it hasn't been reliably available at the best of times. Often, there have been months long dry spells where certain formats weren't available from one or more suppliers, listed as "more coming soon" or "back-ordered". Speaking with the folks at Blue Moon (where I buy 90% of my supplies) they have told me repeatedly that they have difficulty getting a reliable supply of Bergger products from the North American distributor. The lack of consistent availability hasn't done anything to urge me to continue stocking it, which is a shame - the sheet film version of Pancro 400 is quite nice, if you're willing to do what's needed to get good results.

markjwyatt · Mar 27, 2022

Pat Erson said:
I assume Le Duc (owner of Bergger) gets a BIG batch of films being made by InovisCoat (Germany) and finished by Ilford then he can spend the following year or two selling it on world's markets.
Imo the Covid delayed the launch of the new batch but apparently things are moving on.

Plus Inoviscoat is in some form of reorganization.

lecarp · Mar 29, 2022

Outages often occurred with BPF 200 back in its day, nothing ever this dramatic. I do hope it's resolved soon.

removedacct3 · Mar 13, 2023

To supplement this thread ... last week I bought some Pancro 400 in 35mm format. The expiration date on the box says "08/2026". That suggests it is a fairly recent batch. Keeping fingers crossed for future availability.

eli griggs · Mar 13, 2023

fs999 said:
Plaubel Makina 67
Bergger Pancro 400 film developped in Caffenol CLCS 80min @15°-20°C
Scanned with Plustek OpticFilm 120 at 2400dpi with Silverfast AI Studio

Bonnieux • Lubéron • Vaucluse • Provence • France

Caffenol CLCS
500 ml Filtered Water
8gr Anhydrous Washing Soda
5gr Vitamin C
0.5gr KBr
20gr Instant coffee ("Cora")
60 sec. slow agitations then let stand for 79 minutes

Are your "gr" grains or grams, please?

eli griggs · Mar 13, 2023

I have a few rolls of the 120 and maybe a few of 35mm, but have yet to develope the one roll I have shot with a 4cm x 4cm Hasselblad back.

I'm thinking I'll mix up some PKM plus pinch of Amidol for the speed gain of about one third of a stop, without grain increase that Hutchinson mentions on his PMK formula page, D.room cook book, ed one.

Some of the shots were inside a dim arcade's shoeshine chairs and owner and I'd like more in exposure than I think I got.

Philippe-Georges · Mar 13, 2023

Here you can reed what I thought of it:

BERGGER PANCRO 400 @400 IN BERSPEED: UNSEEN BASE FOG...

I just tested a new to me B&W film, the Bergger Pancro 400 in 120 roll, twice actually... The developer was the Bergger Berspeed and I used it as prescribed: prewash, dilute 1+1, 8 min @ 24°C with the advised agitation and finish as usual. The 5 litre stock dilution was mixed two days before...

www.photrio.com

fs999 · Mar 13, 2023

eli griggs said:
Are your "gr" grains or grams, please?

Grams.

Philippe-Georges · Mar 13, 2023

fs999 said:
Grams.

We should finally agree on that:
In the metric system, all measures are in lowercase (= minuscule) letter case and NOT followed by a point.
grams -> g
kilogram -> kg
liter -> l
millilitre -> ml (it used to be cc)
millimeter -> mm
centimeter -> cm
meter -> m
kilometer -> km

But, when a proper name is used, like Volt from the Italian scientist Alessandro Volta, it is written in uppercase (capitals), thus 'V', and no point.
Some examples:
Temperature: °C, in uppercase from the Swedish scientist Andres Celsius, preceded by a ° .
Å = 10-10 m, from the Swedish scientist Jonas Ångström, it is sometimes used to express wavelengths of ultraviolet (UV) light on some filters.
Pressure: hecto Pascal ->hPa, from the French scientist Basile Pascal, 'hecto' = Pa x100 (thus not a proper name); 1 atm = 101,325 Pa.

retina_restoration · Mar 13, 2023

MrclSchprs said:
To supplement this thread ... last week I bought some Pancro 400 in 35mm format. The expiration date on the box says "08/2026". That suggests it is a fairly recent batch. Keeping fingers crossed for future availability.

There is fresh inventory of 35mm and 120 rolls of Pancro 400 now making its way to retail stores in the US - I know this for a fact. So, your roll with a 2026 expiration date is from the new batch Bergger is shipping out. Expect to see fresh stock appearing in stores in the next couple of weeks - or so I’m told.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 13, 2023

retina_restoration said:
There is fresh inventory of 35mm and 120 rolls of Pancro 400 now making its way to retail stores in the US - I know this for a fact...

Any word on if/when sheets will appear?

abruzzi · Mar 13, 2023

cool. I still have some 4x5 sheets and some 120 rolls left. but in the larger formats, I kind of like this film.

mtnbkr · Mar 13, 2023

For you guys exposing it at something other than 400, are you still processing as 400 or pulling it to match the exposure?

Chris

markjwyatt · Mar 13, 2023

mtnbkr said:
For you guys exposing it at something other than 400, are you still processing as 400 or pulling it to match the exposure?

Chris

I tend to meter at 320, am mindful of shadows, and develop for 400.

Bergger Pancro 400, anyone?

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