Bergger Panchro 400 densities

markbau · Jan 21, 2020

Playing around with a few rolls of Panchro 400 (120).

Rating the film at EI 200 my zone I exposure gave me the same density as film base.
A Zone V exposure gave me .040 but the really strange one was a zone VIII exposure gave me 0.71 which is only one stop different from zone V. Was the film just very under developed?
It was developed in D76 1:1 200ml/200ml on a Jobo on slow speed for 12 minutes @ 20C
I'm thinking that there wasn't enough developer coupled with a too short development time, any thoughts?

Alan9940 · Jan 21, 2020

markbau said:
I'm thinking that there wasn't enough developer coupled with a too short development time, any thoughts?

I'm thinking you may be right! I've never seen any solid documentation on the subject--like for Kodak--but I've read that most folks use a minimum of 125-150ml stock D-76 per 80 sq in of film; equivalent to one roll 135-36, 120, 4 4x5, or 1 8x10. Bergger film, of course, may require more...only testing will tell the tale. I always err on the side of more developer vs less; it's cheap so why not use it?

markbau · Jan 21, 2020

There was a thread here, which I cannot find, that talked about minimum developer quantities and I know there is a Kodak publication that talked about it and I recall thinking that I was not using enough stock. The problem is that even with a Patterson tank at 1:1 you can only fit 250ml of stock, a Jobo takes even less. My next test will be D76 undiluted. If anyone can point me to the Kodak publication that talked about the minimum amount of developer I would be grateful.

MattKing · Jan 21, 2020

markbau said:
If anyone can point me to the Kodak publication that talked about the minimum amount of developer I would be grateful.

Look for the capacity recommendations in the appropriate datasheet, and do the necessary arithmetic.
The D-76 datasheet isn't linked to on the current Kodak Alaris website, which tells me that they are probably updating it. The website still has a link to this chart - E103CF - which does list capacity information for many Kodak chemicals: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/E103CF_0.pdf

markbau · Jan 21, 2020

MattKing said:
Look for the capacity recommendations in the appropriate datasheet, and do the necessary arithmetic.
The D-76 datasheet isn't linked to on the current Kodak Alaris website, which tells me that they are probably updating it. The website still has a link to this chart - E103CF - which does list capacity information for many Kodak chemicals: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/E103CF_0.pdf

Sorry but I can't see where that pdf gives any info regarding minimum amounts of stock for a film, it just says what you normally dilute it at. I know I've seen this in a datasheet somewhere. The only thing I can find is on J78 which says:
"You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer. If you process one 135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two 135-36 rolls in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the development time by 10 percent (see the following tables)"
From this, I assume that one 120 film needs at least 250ml of stock, am I reading this correctly?

MattKing · Jan 21, 2020

markbau said:
Sorry but I can't see where that pdf gives any info regarding minimum amounts of stock for a film, it just says what you normally dilute it at.

The Useful capacity column at the right edge indicates (for D-76 stock) four 8x10 sheets per litre. As each roll is equivalent to one 8x10 sheet, that means 250 ml per roll.
Here is a link to the 2017 version of J-78, the D-76 datasheet: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j78-2017.pdf
It does include the wording:

"You can develop one 135-36 roll (80 square
inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in
946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer. If you process
one 135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two
135-36 rolls in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the
development time by 10 percent (see the following tables)."

Bill Burk · Jan 21, 2020

I think something else is going on. You only got a local contrast of .333 in what seems a normal dilution and time.

Feels to me like your temperature dropped.

markbau · Jan 22, 2020

Bill Burk said:
I think something else is going on. You only got a local contrast of .333 in what seems a normal dilution and time.

Feels to me like your temperature dropped.

I always measure the temp in and out on the Jobo and with this film, it dropped 1/2 degree C (I didn't let the tank warm up fully) Going over my process, the tech sheet gives 17 minute development with intermittent agitation. For some reason, I thought it was 15 minutes so took 3 minutes off that to compensate for the constant agitation of the Jobo for a 12 minute development. But I still don't get how zone V and VIII can be so close in density. And why is zone I the same as film base, would underdevelopment do that?

markbau · Jan 22, 2020

MattKing said:
The Useful capacity column at the right edge indicates (for D-76 stock) four 8x10 sheets per litre. As each roll is equivalent to one 8x10 sheet, that means 250 ml per roll.
Here is a link to the 2017 version of J-78, the D-76 datasheet: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j78-2017.pdf
It does include the wording:

"You can develop one 135-36 roll (80 square
inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in
946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer. If you process
one 135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two
135-36 rolls in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the
development time by 10 percent (see the following tables)."

So we can safely say that it was lacking in the amount of stock (200ml instead of the recommended 250ml) and as I just posted above the time was short by at least 2 minutes. The next roll I will develop in stock at their recommended time, adjusted for the Jobo.

MattKing · Jan 22, 2020

markbau said:
So we can safely say that it was lacking in the amount of stock (200ml instead of the recommended 250ml)

The Kodak recommendations are quite conservative and no doubt include a significant safety factor, so it may be the case that 200 ml is (barely) sufficient for everything except a roll of high key subjects.
I prefer to have the safety factor in my favour, so I follow the Kodak recommendations when I do one shot processing.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 23, 2020

markbau said:
Playing around with a few rolls of Panchro 400 (120).

Rating the film at EI 200 my zone I exposure gave me the same density as film base.
A Zone V exposure gave me .040 but the really strange one was a zone VIII exposure gave me 0.71 which is only one stop different from zone V. Was the film just very under developed?
It was developed in D76 1:1 200ml/200ml on a Jobo on slow speed for 12 minutes @ 20C
I'm thinking that there wasn't enough developer coupled with a too short development time, any thoughts?

I always run at least 250-300ml of stock solution before any dilution.

Tom Kershaw · Jan 23, 2020

100ml of XTOL stock in a Jobo is plenty of developer for Pan F Plus at least. e.g 1 roll 100ml XTOL stock + 150ml water.

markbau · Jan 23, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
100ml of XTOL stock in a Jobo is plenty of developer for Pan F Plus at least. e.g 1 roll 100ml XTOL stock + 150ml water.

We are talking about D76, maybe XTOL is a more concentrated/active developer than D76?

MattKing · Jan 23, 2020

markbau said:
We are talking about D76, maybe XTOL is a more concentrated/active developer than D76?

For the same volume of stock, X-Tol does have more capacity than D-76.

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