Berg Hypo Eliminator

Does anyone use this? Searching for "berg" mostly brought up references to Berg toners.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/69330-REG/Berg_BBATH_Bath_Hypo_Toning.html

I'm wondering about it because B&H product description specifically says it stops toning, which is something I was having trouble with this weekend. Last weekend I was still using Kodak HCA after brown toner and it worked fine, but that was the last of my batch. This week I used Arista HCA, which I'd thrown into my last big Freestyle paper order, even though the Berg is cheaper (by volume) and available locally. I couldn't get the brown toning to stop until I switched to using stop bath instead (the same bath I'd been printing with). I'd left prints in the HCA for several minutes and just watched them get browner. (I like just a very light touch of brown, I'm only toning for 30 secs - 1 minute at room temp. It was frustrating.)

Looking at data sheets, it seems the only thing Kodak has in addition to sodium sulfite is sodium bisulfite. Is this important? Or is that in every HCA and Arista just left that off their data sheet?

Anyway, the Arista will only last a couple more sessions (especially if I mix it even stronger next time...hoping that will help) and I don't want to buy the 5-gal packets of Kodak (space issues), so I'm wondering if the Berg is a good option. Can't find a data sheet online, only one reference to hypo ELIMINATORS not being recommended compared to hypo clearing agents.

Bumping...so no one has experience with this product, or knows if there's any difference between various HCAs? I finished my bottle of Arista HCA yesterday and was truly disappointed it seemed to have no power to stop brown toning one bit. I bought some more Kodak HCA for now, but I don't really want to go the 5-gallon route once the 1-gallon packets are discontinued and like the idea of a liquid concentrate. The only reason I haven't just purchased the Berg is because I'm unsure about the hypo eliminator vs. hypo clear terminology.

As far as I'm aware, there is little functional difference between all the various available hypo clearing agents. They all are sulfites. Sodium sulfite, ammonium sulfite, etc. The degree to which they can be diluted varies. The claims for how quickly one can wash archivally seem to be all over the place. I won't trust the super rapid claims. Give prints a real wash no matter what the package claims. There may be a bit of buffering or whatever, but the basic agents remain sulfites. All aid in removal of the products of fixing. As far as I know, nothing on the market currently is a true "hypo eliminator", despite all enthusiastic and misleading commercial naming. They are all just clearing agents. Nothing more.

As far as stopping toning to avoid passing the look you want, I suspect that pulling from the bath before the print looks the way you want it may be the only way to have it come out as you want it, though someone more experienced with toning should pipe up if there is a better way. I too have noted that toning can seem to go too far all too easily. I believe that many things also come out of the wash looking different from what went in. Toning seems more nuanced that it might appear at first glance.

naugastyle said:

Bumping...so no one has experience with this product, or knows if there's any difference between various HCAs? I finished my bottle of Arista HCA yesterday and was truly disappointed it seemed to have no power to stop brown toning one bit. I bought some more Kodak HCA for now, but I don't really want to go the 5-gallon route once the 1-gallon packets are discontinued and like the idea of a liquid concentrate. The only reason I haven't just purchased the Berg is because I'm unsure about the hypo eliminator vs. hypo clear terminology.

Click to expand...

Nancy, the easy way is to just use Kodak HCA at stock strength, i.e. undiluted. Rinse off the brown toner from the print for about 30 seconds, then place it into the HCA bath. Occasionally rotate prints and/or agitate the tray as you stack more into it. Don't tone to where you think it should be - tone to before that. After all prints are done and sitting in HCA, wash them for 10 minutes. If you're using Viradon, don't even think of mixing the toning working solution without distilled water or you'll have calcitic deposits left on your prints which means you'll just have to wash them again later.

Kodak is not discontinuing the 1 gallon packets, they're discontinuing the packets that make 1 gallon of working solution - not stock solution. The packet you want is the standard "makes 5 gallons of working solution" or "makes 1 gallon of stock solution" packet. You store the HCA in stock form and mix it 1:4. You wouldn't want to store it as a working solution anyways as it doesn't keep. This size is very convenient because it's a simple 100ml + 400ml water for 2 rolls of film or straight for a sulphide neutralizer. An even cheaper option is to just buy powder sodium sulfite from PF.

A Quick Fresh HCA for Some APUG'ers

naugastyle said:

Looking at data sheets, it seems the only thing Kodak has
in addition to sodium sulfite is sodium bisulfite. Is this
important? Or is that in every HCA and Arista just
left that off their data sheet?

Click to expand...

The sodium bisulfite may be omitted. Kodak adds
some for the purpose of a lower ph. Steve Anchell
mentions it with or without depending upon how the
print is dried.

When the print is immersed in a bath of sodium sulfite
the sulfite binds with any of the free sulfur present. The
two bind together to yield thiosulfate; fixer. Toning halts.

Save space. A pound of sodium sulfite from Photographer's
Formulary costs $6.50. Spoon up fresh HCA when needed.
I believe the usual HCA will do for a toner stop although
I've read of higher concentrations for that purpose. Dan

Christopher, I'm well aware of how to store/mix HCA. I'm saying I do not have space for one more gallon jug of ANYTHING...my under-sink area is now rejecting me in the form of bottles popping out and rolling across the floor while I'm printing. Which is why I prefer Kodak HCA in the 1 gal packets--meaning, stored in a 1L bottle.

I actually haven't had problems stopping toning with the Kodak HCA at normal working strength, but I've considered lowering dilution to be extra-sure. As for the Arista, from my poor experience with Arista Ultra Cold tone developer, I'd bet that the dilution written on the Arista bottles is wildly incorrect...I tried a nearly-double strength and it still didn't work, making both the Berg and Kodak cheaper. My problem hasn't been not knowing when to pull the print to get the correct tone with an HCA solution that actually stops the toning, it's been that the Arista HCA simply has no effect.

The PF sodium sulfite may be the way to go once I run out of my Kodak stock, as I'm all about saving space and money. Thanks to both of you.