Bellows restricting movements on Chamonix

Jimi3 · Apr 26, 2023

I just got a used Chamonix 45f-1 - seems like a great camera. I picked it in part due to the fact that I wanted to use substantial movements, and mechanically it fits the bill. Unfortunately, I’m finding the small size of the bellows at the lensboard end to really restrict what I can do, especially compared to my Toyo monorail with the larger lensboard/bellows. On the Chamonix, I can hardly get any swing with either my 90 or 150mm without the bellows intruding into the image. I do have a recessed board on the 90.

As I got the camera used, I’m not sure which bellows it came with, but I’m assuming it’s the standard version. I’ve seen reference to Chamonix’s universal bellows helping this problem, but in looking online I’m not sure how this would the case - I don’t see the difference in pictures of the bellows. Would they help? What about the bag bellows? It seems like those might do the trick, and I’m not planning on using any long lenses.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 26, 2023

Email Hugo at Chamonix and he'll help you select the correct bellows.

Contact — Chamonix View Camera

www.chamonixviewcamera.com

ic-racer · Apr 26, 2023

I do have a recessed board on the 90.

Why?

xkaes · Apr 26, 2023

Another consideration is the rear width of your lenses. Some are incredibly wide and don't allow a lot of movement with certain cameras/bellows.

Jimi3 · Apr 26, 2023

ic-racer said:
Why?

Thought I’d free up the movements a little.

Jimi3 · Apr 26, 2023

xkaes said:
Another consideration is the rear width of your lenses. Some are incredibly wide and don't allow a lot of movement with certain cameras/bellows.

The Fujinon 150 is pretty small. The Super Angulon 90 is bigger. Doesn’t seem huge, but I don’t have a lot to compare it to.

xkaes · Apr 26, 2023

What type of movement are you seeing restrictions -- shifting or tilting -- and how much movement?

Jimi3 · Apr 26, 2023

xkaes said:
What type of movement are you seeing restrictions -- shifting or tilting -- and how much movement?

Mostly tilts and swings - I get a little leeway, but not much before corners and edges go dark. Much less range than the camera will otherwise physically allow. Rise and fall are better.

mpirie · Apr 27, 2023

Jimi3 said:
Mostly tilts and swings - I get a little leeway, but not much before corners and edges go dark.

Are you sure you're not reaching the edge of the image circle?

Mike

abruzzi · Apr 27, 2023

it seems suprising that you can get hardly any movements before the bellows interfere. just to be certain, I'd set it up so it does, and remove the back to seeif thats really the case. If it is, it seems the bag bellows is probably the simplest solution, especially for wide angles as long as it works for the focal lengths you are shooting with.

xkaes · Apr 27, 2023

mpirie said:
Are you sure you're not reaching the edge of the image circle?

Mike

Another consideration. Are you sure the lens axis is in the center of the ground glass? I think the Chamonix use centered lens board, but if you are using an off-centered one, it would be easy to reach the edge of the IC with little movement.

ic-racer · Apr 27, 2023

Jimi3 said:
Thought I’d free up the movements a little.

I think the recessed board is causing the opposite problem.

madNbad · Apr 27, 2023

ic-racer said:
I think the recessed board is causing the opposite problem.

Just a question, aren’t recessed boards designed to be used with bag bellow? I haven’t used large format in years but it’s more out of curiosity of what recessed boards are for.
Sorry, don’t want to throw the thread off track.

abruzzi · Apr 27, 2023

I’ve always thought recessed boards were to allow wider lenses than the camera standards allow or allow less compression of standard bellows with wide lenses.

The second point is irrelevant with bag bellows, the first is more about the design of the standards than anything else. Maybe you might use a recessed lens board to alight the lens with the pivot axis of the standard, but I can’t think of anything specific to bag bellows in the choice of lens board.

Jimi3 · Apr 27, 2023

Well, my 150 is on a normal board, and I’m seeing the same issue. But I can get another flat board for the 90.

As far as it just being the limits of the image circle, I’ll have to do some more investigating when I get home. My first impression was that I’m getting less movements than with the same lenses on my Toyo. Also, on the new camera, I think I’m getting lots of rise, fall, and shift, but little tilt or swing.

madNbad · Apr 27, 2023

abruzzi said:
I’ve always thought recessed boards were to allow wider lenses than the camera standards allow or allow less compression of standard bellows with wide lenses.

The second point is irrelevant with bag bellows, the first is more about the design of the standards than anything else. Maybe you might use a recessed lens board to alight the lens with the pivot axis of the standard, but I can’t think of anything specific to bag bellows in the choice of lens board.

Thanks for the explanation.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 27, 2023

ic-racer said:
I think the recessed board is causing the opposite problem.

I doubt it. Recessed boards keep the bellows from crimping as much by extending them more than with a flat board. I don't see how it could have the opposite effect. Nor do I see how a recessed board would cause the bellows to impinge on the image circle.

madNbad said:
Just a question, aren’t recessed boards designed to be used with bag bellow? I haven’t used large format in years but it’s more out of curiosity of what recessed boards are for.
Sorry, don’t want to throw the thread off track.

Recessed boards can be used with regular pleated bellows just fine. In fact, that's where they do the most good, by keeping the bellows from crimping and allowing more possibilities for movements. I've been using recessed boards on my field cameras with standard pleated bellows for years with good results.

With bag bellows, you often don't need the recessed board, since the bellows are free to move and more flexible.

Jimi3: I kind of imagine that you might be running out of image circle by using front tilts and swings rather than having the bellows impinge on the image. If the bellows are indeed blocking the rear element somehow, then it should be easy to see by removing the camera back and looking. Also, it might be easy to get the bellows out of the way by pushing them up over the rear element or whatever.

And, the comment about the off-center board is relevant. If you do have boards with off-center holes, then you have effective fall when your lens is in "zero" position. That would show up as one top corner of the ground glass (bottom of image) going dark first when you swing, but tilting should actually be enhanced a bit. Do explore further.

I'm curious to see how this turns out.

Doremus

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 27, 2023

Chamonix furnished my new 45H-1 with a universal bellow that has a bag type at the lens end to allow for more movement than their regular bellows. They also have a complete bag bellows. Note that the bag bellows only has a 250mm draw vs 350mm for the universal. So you;re limited to 250mm lens on the bag bellows vs 350mm lens on the universal. (I think that's right).

I would contact them and ask about what's best for your lenses.

Bellows — Chamonix View Camera

These are pictures of the universal bellows and wide angle bellows for Chamonix 4X5 cameras. They are used in all our 45 camera models. The universal bellows is designed to be used for both wide angle and long lenses. Our 45 wide angle bellows has a max draw of 250mm and we recommend this bellows

www.chamonixviewcamera.com

xkaes · Apr 27, 2023

Jimi3 said:
Well, my 150 is on a normal board, and I’m seeing the same issue. But I can get another flat board for the 90.

The fact that you are having this problem with the 150mm tells me that the problem is either with the non/centering of your lens board or how much you are moving the front standard. You should be able to shift the lens in any direction at least an inch.
And getting a flat board for your 90mm will just make things worse. A recessed board moves the lens back -- to the wider part of the bellows -- so you get move movement potential.

grat · Apr 28, 2023

On my Chamonix 45N-1, with standard bellows, I'm running out of image circle WAAAAAAY before the bellows causes restriction on my Fujinon W 150mm f/5.6 (the 46mm front thread, with 245mm image circle according to subclub).

I don't think the problem is the bellows, I think you have unreasonable expectations for your image circle.

I usually test movements by focusing the lens to infinity, and looking through the lens towards the ground glass-- You should be able to see all 4 corners of the ground glass.

Jimi3 · Apr 28, 2023

Alright, here are a couple pics. I’m getting vignetting with the minimal amount of tilt shown in the first picture.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 28, 2023

Jimi,

Those are the universal bellows. That floppy part in front is the bag section. Just position it so it doesn't fall down behind the lens. If you need, use tape to mount a D-ring on the top of the bag bellows so you can pull on it from the outside, or just take off the camera back, as you have done, and push it out of the way. It's not supposed to be in the way like that.

By the way, that's not vignetting; it's simply blockage from the bellows.

Doremus

grat · Apr 28, 2023

I believe I see the issue.

It should look a bit more like this:

Jimi3 · Apr 29, 2023

Thanks guys! So it’s better when paying attention to the position of the bellows, and I’ll probably take the suggestion of mounting a d ring. But I’m still some what surprised at how little movement I get with the 150. It’s the Fujinon w 150 with 52mm threads, and tilt (when shooting portrait orientation) or swing (when shooting landscape) is very limited before corners start to go dark. My 90 seems to be giving more wiggle room.

grat · Apr 30, 2023

Your bellows are crumpled, and need to be straightened. For the section you're having problems with, a D ring will be of limited use, because that section extends past the "cone" of your bellows. I'd start by removing the bellows from the camera (slider behind the front standard, two knurled discs on the side of the rear standard), getting all the creases / folds into the right position (so it looks like the image I posted) and lay it flat somewhere for a few days.

As for the lens, you appear to have the 150mm NW / EBC lens, which has a decent image circle of 224mm (at f/22)-- but keep in mind the bare minimum to cover 4x5 is 162mm. Your 90mm probably has about 238mm.

If you're wondering where I'm getting these numbers from, see http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byfl.htm

Bellows restricting movements on Chamonix

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