Bellini B&W Reversal kit?

mr.datsun · Aug 23, 2015

And has anyone tried this kit from Bellini Foto, as mentioned by Henning Serger here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Bellini website not working at the moment.

snikulin · Aug 23, 2015

mr.datsun said:
Bellini website not working at the moment.

The site works.
The link in the post is incorrect.
This actual link that works: http://www.bellinifoto.it
The reversal kit direct link: http://www.bellinifoto.it/it/scheda-prodotti.php?id=77&categoria=4&famiglia=3
Well, bummer, the data sheet is in Italian: http://www.bellinifoto.it/files_prodotti/77/files/47_kit_bwin__1.pdf

mr.datsun · Aug 24, 2015

snikulin said:
The site works.
The link in the post is incorrect.
This actual link that works: http://www.bellinifoto.it
The reversal kit direct link: http://www.bellinifoto.it/it/scheda-prodotti.php?id=77&categoria=4&famiglia=3
Well, bummer, the data sheet is in Italian: http://www.bellinifoto.it/files_prodotti/77/files/47_kit_bwin__1.pdf

Thanks, I had tried the simple base url before, but the site started working now. The datasheet is in Italian but reading through I can see that they are offering a dichromate-based reversal kit which makes it an alternative to the Foma kit.

The kit is liquid and is 1lt. Qty. makes it suitable for cinefilm processing. But will they ship liquids (and dichromate) to the UK? I can write and ask.

They also have plenty of the chemicals as standalone:

http://www.bellinifoto.it/en/chimica-per-colore.php?divisione=2

Henning Serger · Aug 24, 2015

mr.datsun said:
But will they ship liquids (and dichromate) to the UK? I can write and ask.

Best is to send them an email and ask. They speak English.

Best regards,
Henning

mr.datsun · Aug 24, 2015

Henning Serger said:
Best is to send them an email and ask. They speak English.

Best regards,
Henning

Thank-you. I will.
Best wishes,
Simon

Ricardo Miranda · Aug 24, 2015

Dear mr. datsum

If the End of the World is anywhere near the UK, you might find that it is easier and cheaper to buy the Foma kit from Process Supplies or Silverprint than it is to order from Italy.
You might enquire if there is an importer for Belini products near your End of the World place.

mr.datsun · Aug 24, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
Dear mr. datsum

If the End of the World is anywhere near the UK, you might find that it is easier and cheaper to buy the Foma kit from Process Supplies or Silverprint than it is to order from Italy.
You might enquire if there is an importer for Belini products near your End of the World place.

Thanks again. I know about the Foma kit and I go to Silverprint often for supplies. Process Supplies also sell the Foma.

I have run around 20-30 Super 8 tests with Foma. I just do not get along with it. I will not use it again, which is why I am asking about kits that use dichromate. Such dichromate-based kits cannot be purchased in the UK.

But I at least think it is interesting that there are now two other kits available aside from the Foma. One is Bellini and the other is retrocine in USA.

I will write to Bellini, they will tell me if I can get it here.

Ricardo Miranda · Aug 24, 2015

In that case let me know what is Belini's answer.
I might be interested as their process doesn't involve 2nd exposure or so that's what I read.
In my case it will be to develop Fomapan 100R Double 8.

pdeeh · Aug 25, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
their process doesn't involve 2nd exposure or so that's what I read.
.

From the datasheet it would seem they use what is sometimes called a fogging developer as an additional bath step instead of re-exposure to light.

In their case they use Stannous chloride (Tin chloride), the other declared ingredient being Sodium hydroxide.

davedm · Aug 25, 2015

Alessandro,

Have you tried this kit youself ? I am just curious given your interest in reversal and the kit being from Italy ?

davedm · Aug 26, 2015

Thanks for the response, I may get around to order one someday.

I currently use Jens Osbahr's process with very good results with FP4.

mr.datsun · Aug 26, 2015

davedm said:
Thanks for the response, I may get around to order one someday.

I currently use Jens Osbahr's process with very good results with FP4.

Jens Osbahr's process uses a permanganate-based bleach, as does the Foma kit. And I've never understood why it works so badly for me.

mr.datsun · Aug 26, 2015

Alessandro Serrao said:
Yes.
I must say that Bellini in person gave me the kit for free for tests purpose.
Kudos to them.
I've tried the kit with PanF+ and the results are as advertised. Very good.
In particular the slides have a perfectly neutral tone to them when projected, which is rather difficult to obtain from a diy process.
The only drawback is what I've said earlier. The kit has a maximum capacity of 12 rolls when processed in batches. Much like the Tetenal E6 and C41 kits.

Good to hear it worked well for you, Alessandro. The neutral tone sounds appealing.

With regards re-usign the stock solution. I wonder whether just substituting a fresh 1st developer each time might make the results more consistent.

In my case I guess I can process perhaps 4 rolls of super 8 re-using 1 litre of stock? As the super 8 requires 1 litre each time. And the capacity should be divided by 1/3? Would that make sense?

mr.datsun · Aug 26, 2015

Alessandro Serrao said:
The kit is supplied with concentrates of 500ml to be diluited 1:1 to make working solutions of 1lt.
Every other batch (of 4 films processed alone or together) requires an increment of the first developer time accordingly.
Don't know how many sq. meters a super8 cassette yield...

Thanks. I reckon I could do the maths. How long do you think the mixed solutions last?

But more importantly, how do you think the results compared with a permanganate-based kit or process?

davedm · Aug 26, 2015

Datsun

Have you tried permanganate bleach at conc recommended by Osbahr rather than foma/ilford ?

Permanganate bleach must be followed by sodium metabisulfite (aka disulfite) clearing bath and not sodium sulfite.

Another thing to keep in mind is softening of emulsion by permanganate bleach as opposed to hardening by dichromate.

So you must harden your film. If you are using light re-exposure, you may consider a hardening bath immediately after clearing and before light exposure. Otherwise hardening can be combined with fixing as recommended by Osbahr

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

mr.datsun · Aug 27, 2015

davedm said:
Datsun

Have you tried permanganate bleach at conc recommended by Osbahr rather than foma/ilford ?

Permanganate bleach must be followed by sodium metabisulfite (aka disulfite) clearing bath and not sodium sulfite.

Another thing to keep in mind is softening of emulsion by permanganate bleach as opposed to hardening by dichromate.

So you must harden your film. If you are using light re-exposure, you may consider a hardening bath immediately after clearing and before light exposure. Otherwise hardening can be combined with fixing as recommended by Osbahr

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

davedm. I have not tried the Osbahr concentration. what is the difference between concentrations of Foma and Osbahr?

I use the correct clearing bath. Clearing is not the problem for me.

Hardening is not the problem either.

The problem is the lack of contrast in the image I get.

davedm · Aug 27, 2015

Datsun,

I am not sure what Foma is using but I speculate it may be close to what Ilford is suggesting. If contrast is your only worry, your current bleach may be ok.

Lack of contrast could also mean low solvent effect. AFAIK Foma kit does not have a halide solvent as it uses same developer solution for fist and second bath.

You could add a silver halide solvent bath after first developer (~5g/l hypo @ 10 min as starting point) and adjust time accordingly if the contrast is not as per your liking. If you do this a water wash/ stop is necessary after first developer to stop developer action.

Also Agitation in bleaching is very important. Vigorously agitate the tank during entire time while bleaching.

P.S. If you have not already done so, please read Jens Osbahr's pdf. It is quite informative.

davedm · Aug 27, 2015

mr.datsun said:
what is the difference between concentrations of Foma and Osbahr?

As Mr. Sarraro pointed, both him and Osbahr suggest to use half the concentration of permanganate at ~ 1g/l while using the same conc of sulfuric acid ~ 18.5 g/l (10 ml/l).

mr.datsun · Aug 27, 2015

davedm said:
Datsun,

I am not sure what Foma is using but I speculate it may be close to what Ilford is suggesting. If contrast is your only worry, your current bleach may be ok.

Lack of contrast could also mean low solvent effect. AFAIK Foma kit does not have a halide solvent as it uses same developer solution for fist and second bath.

You could add a silver halide solvent bath after first developer (~5g/l hypo @ 10 min as starting point) and adjust time accordingly if the contrast is not as per your liking. If you do this a water wash/ stop is necessary after first developer to stop developer action.

Also Agitation in bleaching is very important. Vigorously agitate the tank during entire time while bleaching.

P.S. If you have not already done so, please read Jens Osbahr's pdf. It is quite informative.

Thanks for the encouragement. I honestly went through a lot of tests trying to fix this. I documented the process and tried all the variations (changing 1st dev. times and then trying amounts of hypo). I was never satisfied.

I'm not sure I could go back to that. Not unless someone could show me it working step by step, maybe.

At the moment the idea of processing Adox Super 8 to negative state is much more attractive to me. At least I'd enjoy that, like I used to.

It bugs me because I used to use a Tetenal kit (with Patterson paper developer - maybe just the 2nd dev?) in the 80s and it just WORKED. Very good contrast, sharp. Looked great and it was easy.

mr.datsun · Aug 27, 2015

Alessandro Serrao said:
Lack of contrast: you should first develop for more time (or agitate for more time), or add some hypo to the first developer to clear the image somewhat, or use a sodium dithionite second redeveloper, or use a last selenium toning step or any combination of the aforementioned steps.

Alessandro. I really did all this. I'm a reversal failure.

flavio81 · Aug 27, 2015

Wow, i want to try this. I wonder if my local customs will allow the import of the kit.

Bellini B&W Reversal kit?

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