Beginners thread

Hey LF APUG! Just when I thought my GAS had subsided, and I have a great rhythm down with my MF cameras, I visited an exhibit today. There was a very talented large format photographer showcasing his work, and I was blown away by the collection. I thought I was getting detail with my shots, but this new level really made me excited about the idea of large format. While I've played with the idea for years now, I've put it off for financial and time reasons. I would love an inexpensive foot in the door. Any suggestions? If there is already a thread for this I would love to read it. At one point I was looking at a cambo sc and another point the sinar gear, i would start with 4x5.

what is the simplest and most reasonably price 4x5 setup?

Maybe Crown Graphic, Speed Graphic, or Toyo View field camera.

Wanderlust Travelwide............ once the start rolling out.

I've started with a Speed. It's tougher than it looks/seems. Lots to go wrong, and a much slower process throughout.

Maybe with a lot of practice you could make finished images as quickly as with roll film but I doubt it would be much of a hobby at that point.

The cheapest way to get into 4x5 can be a monorail camera. I have seen some old models go as low as $50.00. You can get a nice later model Cambo/Calumet for $150.00. Sinar is more money but worth it if you can afford it. To get in really cheap look for a monorail with a 210mm lens included plus some 4x5 film holders. You will need a cable release and a dark cloth. An oversize black T-shirt or sweat shirt will work fine for a dark cloth. You can use your 35mm camera or DSLR for a light meter or even your Iphone if you have the app.

Read this: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

There is nothing wrong with Speeds or Crowns. They are limited in their movements but can be used hand held. It all depends upon what your needs are.

Crowns and Speeds don't have much for movements, but you still get that nice big neg full of details. They also let you make all (most) of the mistakes involved with handling the film, etc.. Then you can add movements when you've gotten that part of the learning curve out of the way. They can also be sold for close to what you'll likely pay if you move up or give up. Medium format is the gateway drug to LF.
That said, I started with a Cambo monorail that I got on ebay with a 210mm and a carry case for about $350, shipped. I added a Speed later (for the focal plane shutter) and a Crown after that. And then a Chamonix, which has made the Cambo pretty much redundant.

First figure out what you value and may need. That will make the process easier and less frustrating. Things to consider: portability, movements... Or are you just looking for cheapest entry pointy I get a big negative. Like Bethe I started with a Cambo and it still meets all of my needs except portability. Since 1982 or so. I got a Speed Graphic along the way because lots of movement isn't my style and I wanted handhold portability. Both are (relatively) inexpensive entry points but very different. Remember the cost of associated gear adds to the entry cost.

I like the Crown Graphic and the Speed Graphic because they can be used as view cameras and used hand held. They are inexpensive and can use a wide range of lenses. The movements are somewhat limited but if you find that you want more movements you can easily sell them for what they cost you and keep the lens for a view camera or a monorail camera.

For my 2 cents, moving to a 4x5 is about a lot more than just a big negative. Unless you are enlarging much past 11x14 prints, you can get about the same image quality from a good DSLR, even though that is blasphemy. Using a view camera is just an entirely different process, involving decisions about planes of focus, depth of field, and more careful composition, all of which involve view camera movements. This is my long-winded way of saying that if you really want to shoot with a view camera, you want movements, not a press camera like the various Graphics. The lower-end Sinars (typically the F, F1 and F2) are not the cheapest monorails out there, but the Sinar is a system camera, meaning that you can expand upwards from the F-series by buying higher-end standards, the Sinar shutter, etc., so you have to decide whether the absolute lowest starting cost is more important than having a basis for future upgrades. And recognize that all view cameras are compromises, be it for weight and portability, or precision of use, or ease of backpacking. My own path started with a Sinar F, added a Wista/ZoneVI field camera, and then ended with a Canham DLC which combines some of the features of both (but it still, of course, a compromise).

But sometimes it really is just about a bigger negative. If one has interest in learning alternative processes, for example.

BrianShaw said:

But sometimes it really is just about a bigger negative. If one has interest in learning alternative processes, for example.

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Yeah, or if you want to contact print. Ever contact print 35mm? Me neither!

Everyone mentions sharpness, tonality, lack of grain, and movements with large format. You also get the choice of all those wonderful lenses from the 1800's up to the modern glass.

My crown graphic has had much more use than my heavy studio 4x5. I never used the movements much, and the crown was so much lighter. For me it IS about the big negative - for both enlarging and contact alt printing. I've never used it hand held, and always tried to compose to the edge of the ground glass.
Hasn't had much use lately - injured shoulders have made anything heavier than a TLR unsupportable.
Like everything else, your choice will be individual. Studio work or treks into the wilderness? Are you 6 foot 4 with linebacker shoulders or 5 foot 2, with the beginnings of arthritis? Are you intrigued and eager to work with movements, or intimidated and confused? (or both!)
What cameras have you seen? Try to see and handle as many as possible, if you can.
I just bought what was available locally, when I had the money. This was awhile ago, when all the professionals were dumping their gear to buy digital. I'm not in a large centre, so when something became available, I bought it.

Alan Gales said:

Yeah, or if you want to contact print. Ever contact print 35mm? Me neither!

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Just curious, does anyone here contact print 4x5? (The OP said he was interested in starting with a 4x5.) Over on the LFPF, I think the contacts are minimally from 5x7 negatives, and most commonly, 8x10 (or even ULF, for that matter). I have one 4x5 contact hanging on my wall, from a photographer from whom I bought both an 8x10 contact and a 4x5 contact; to be honest, that 4x5 is really small, it is hard to see all the detail capture.

I contact print 4x5, and on occasion even 120 but never 35mm

A technical camera would be a compromise between monorail and press. More control than press and less than monorail. Still compact though.
It's likely to be a bit more $$$ though.

Here's an example for you:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MPP-Mk-VIII...382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item487e52940e

palewin said:

Just curious, does anyone here contact print 4x5? (The OP said he was interested in starting with a 4x5.) Over on the LFPF, I think the contacts are minimally from 5x7 negatives, and most commonly, 8x10 (or even ULF, for that matter). I have one 4x5 contact hanging on my wall, from a photographer from whom I bought both an 8x10 contact and a 4x5 contact; to be honest, that 4x5 is really small, it is hard to see all the detail capture.

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I own an 8x10 and don't contact print. I don't have room for a darkroom. I do have an Epson V750 flatbed scanner. When my daughter eventually moves out I plan on doing some contact printing in what is now her bedroom. She's in college now so that may be a few years off.

I know some people contact print 4x5 and 5x7. Contact printing 8x10 would be the smallest I would want to go but to each their own. I started out with a Cambo SC 4x5. Who knows where the OP will end up.

palewin said:

Just curious, does anyone here contact print 4x5? (The OP said he was interested in starting with a 4x5.) Over on the LFPF, I think the contacts are minimally from 5x7 negatives, and most commonly, 8x10 (or even ULF, for that matter). I have one 4x5 contact hanging on my wall, from a photographer from whom I bought both an 8x10 contact and a 4x5 contact; to be honest, that 4x5 is really small, it is hard to see all the detail capture.

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I contact every roll/sheet film that I shoot and this includes 35mm. I am a great believer in making proof sheets of everything which tells me about exposure, development, focus, etc. I never hear proof sheets mentioned on APUG. Why not? As for a good beginner/experienced photographer's LF 4x5 camera, I would recommend the Graphic View ll. At one time this camera was recommended for first year photography students at Art Center and Brooks. They usually wanted them equiped with 210mm lenses. I have worked with an experienced photographer who was still using his View lls to make interior and exterior pictures for architects. These appeared in major architectural magazines.......Regards

I'd rather have an Edward Weston 4x5 contact print on my wall than any of my own enlargements.

A few things to think about when getting into Large Format photography... the first and foremost is what will you mostly be shooting? Are you a studio shooter? Landscape? or Straight from the hip? Studio you'll want a monorail camera: a Graphic View or Cambo/Calumet would give you the best bang for your buck and can be had for cheap. Landscape, you'll want a field camera but these can be pricy, look into Intrepid. And finally for those (like me) who likes to shoot from the hip, a press camera, I suggest a Crown Graphic.

Lenses, look at KEH, if you get a camera that doesn't come with a lens you'll want something in the 120-135mm range, Schneider-Krueznack, Fuji, Wollensak (Raptar) or Kodak Ektars are good lenses to start off with.

The film, don't cheap out and buy expired stuff, get yourself a box of Ilford HP5 or FP4 to start off with, relatively cheap and forgiving. Developing get one of those old Bessler colour print drums and rotating bases.

I also contact print 4x5 - works great for Mordançage. I do contacts as proof sheets of all the sizes I shoot, but I haven't done 35mm or 120 as contacts to put on a wall. And I agree with Jim just above (post #18).

I am confused about the lenses out there. I see a lot of well priced bodies on keh but matching the lens is confusing, and film holders. These bodies seem to be pretty minimal. Any leads on a starter kit? Anyone selling a kit as a whole? I am kicking myself now, a local was selling a great cambo kit last year and I declined.

Check on Ebay. A quick scan gave a few complete kits with camera, lens, holders, and seven some film thrown in.

BrianShaw said:

I contact print 4x5, and on occasion even 120 but never 35mm

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So do I. 35mm contacts are just so that I can look a one or two sheets to quickly choose a negative to work with, nothing more. 120 and 4"x5" contact prints are useful, but sometimes I want a 4"x5" contact for an intimate subject.

Jim Jones said:

I'd rather have an Edward Weston 4x5 contact print on my wall than any of my own enlargements.

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A Weston 4x5 contact print would be valuable, because I don't know if any exist (other than perhaps proofs to see what's on a negative.) I was at the AIPAD show, where quite a few of Edward Weston's prints were for sale (some vintage, many printed by Cole) and none were smaller than 8x10. Here is an excerpt from a discussion of EW's technique:

"Weston's printing outfit was a contact frame lit by a bare light bulb in the darkroom. That's about as basic as you can get.

8x10 camera & negatives, contact prints, dry mounted — that's it. (Even the Graflex shots, 3.25 x 4.25, were enlarged using the 8x10 so he could contact-print those.) (Contrast control in the enlargements must have been a bitch, but no doubt he worked out rules of thumb, and the Graflex was used primarily for portraits, where lighting could be largely controlled.)

By the way, for 8x10 prints Weston cut his dry-mount boards to 14 x 15.5 inches for horizontal prints and 13.5 x 16.25 for vertical ones. (Typically, that info comes from Adams.) Try them — the proportions work well and look good."

The reason I raised the question earlier in the thread was that there was some discussion of the value of 4x5 negatives in terms of contact printing. I still feel that 4x5 is very small for a contact print (for display, as opposed to the proof prints most of us make to initially edit from our negatives, and for cataloging purposes) and I personally wouldn't suggest getting into large format with a 4x5 simply because you can make a contact print from that size negative.

I've also noticed that we seem to be a "polarized" population: every time a beginner asks for large format camera recommendations, there is one group who suggests press cameras, such as the Speed Graphics, and another group (me included) who suggest models allowing more movements. It comes down to whether one simply wants a larger negative (more pixels!) or whether one wants the perspective controls which view camera movements allow. Alternatively, some of the press cameras have built-in focal plane shutters, which simplifies their use with lenses such as the Aero Ektars which are wonderful portrait lenses (the AE, and other barrel lenses, do not have shutters and can be difficult, if not impossible, to mount in shutters). As many posts have suggested, it really comes down to your reasons for wanting to use a 4x5.

LMNOP said:

I am confused about the lenses out there. I see a lot of well priced bodies on keh but matching the lens is confusing, and film holders. These bodies seem to be pretty minimal. Any leads on a starter kit? Anyone selling a kit as a whole? I am kicking myself now, a local was selling a great cambo kit last year and I declined.

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Let's eliminate some confusion. Film holders are easy: there are a lot of used plastic Lisco and Fidelity 4x5 holders out there, they work fine. Toyo holders are a little bit more precisely made, but hard to find used, and much more expensive; functionally there is no difference. You probably want a minimum of three, which since they are double-sided allow six exposures before you need to re-load. Many of us make a point of exposing both sheets in a holder on a single set-up shot if we think it is a good one, so that if something goes wrong during development we have a duplicate negative to work with. I normally take six loaded holders with me when I go out.

As for lenses, the standard recommendation for a first lens is something in the 150-180mm range, which is somewhat similar to 45-50mm on a 35mm camera. They will usually be mounted on a Copal 0 or 1 shutter (the number defines the diameter of the shutter mount) and you will need a lens board for your camera with the appropriate 0 or 1 hole. I would recommend any of the relatively modern (say 1960s on up) multi-coated lenses, most of the better-known brands (Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, or Fuji) will be more or less the same. (I own 80, 120, 150, 180, 210, and 300mm lenses, and would guesstimate that I use the 150 about 75% of the time. I don't even take the 120 or 180 out of the house any more, but I don't sell them because view camera lenses are basically out-of-production, even the major manufacturers are only manufacturing new lenses with the coverage for digital backs on view cameras, which don't have the image circles one really wants for 4x5 film.)

As Alan Gales posted earlier, you will also need a black t-shirt or cloth, some way to determine exposure (a hand-held light meter is the most common, but a digital camera or smartphone app may suffice), and unless you are hand-holding (which is quite limiting since most LF exposures are at small apertures, thus longer exposures), a tripod.