Beginners Question

Hi there,

I've just started printing, and was wondering, roughly how large can I print a 35mm HP5 neg before the grain becomes intrusively large. The largest I have printed so far is 8x10.

regards

Geoff

That's going to be a matter of personal opinion. Some people love 'intrusively large' grain whereas others hate it.

You're going to have to try this yourself. You can test it with 8x10 paper though if that's all you have.

Adjust the enlarger to give a bigger size, say 12x16 and just expose a piece of 8x10 in the middle and see what you think.

keep going up in size until you don't like the look any more.


Steve.

IMHO, Steve is correct.
juan

it would also depend upon which developer you used, exposure time/ speed used and how long the neg was - enlarger type, what grade you're printing at etc etc etc. best way to find out if it suits you is to whack it up big and take a look.

I love grain when used in stylistically correct situations. Gives large prints an 'edge' or look. 35mm with Tri-X or HP5, processed for a strong contrast curve, printed to 20x24 has a wonderful look if it doesn't distract from the image.

I love no grain when shooting 8x10.

You've got to use the correct format and film with you end result in mind. No one format or film can do it all.

Dear Geoff,

An added thing to keep in mind that you generally stand farther away from a larger print.

Neal Wydra

I've ordered a box of 20 x 16 today, I'll try that, I had to buy a new box of 8 x 10 aswell, after i turned the light on while the box was open yesterday

As others have said, "intrusive" is a subjective term. HP5 will give less grain if correctly exposed and developed in an ultra-fine-grain developer like Perceptol. It will show more grain if developed "normally" in a developer like ID-11, more grain still if developed in a product like Rodinal. As a rough guide, a correctly exposed and developed (ID-11) HP5 Plus neg will just show grain (visible to the naked eye) at 8x10", which is in no way to say that you can't enlarge it to 20x16" or any size you like.

It is probably better to approach the problem the other way round - what size prints do you want to make, and do you find visible grain disturbing? If at any given print size you find the grain unacceptable, even developing HP5 in Perceptol, then change either to Delta 400 (fabulously fine grain and sharpness IF you get the exposure and development spot on, otherwise a mess) or to a slower film like FP4.

Regards,

David

Not much to add here regarding the grain. To go one step farther than film and developer choice, visible grain suits some pictures better than others. But, as pointed out, it's entirely subjective.
As for your fogged paper, unless the whole stack was out in the light, you've probably only fogged the edges, and maybe several sheets on top. Run a sheet from the middle through developer and fix, and see how bad things are before you give up on it.

I had to buy a new box of 8 x 10 aswell, after i turned the light on while the box was open yesterday

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Welcome to the world of photography! This will be the first of many mistakes you will make. We've all been there. Don't let it get you down.

I second the thoughts above. My personal limit for most 35mm enlargement is on 11x14 paper with a generous border - say 9x12 image area. There is also a rule of thumb that the bigger the enlargement the higher the contrast you need to maintain the tonal "feel" at the recommended viewing distance. Higher contrast will also accentuate grain. You will learn it's all about trade-offs - no "silver" bullets.....

GeoffHill,

16x20" is a great size.
What paper did you order?

When I print 16x20 I use my hands and not the tongs, the bigger the paper gets the easier its for you to hurt it with the tongs. Or at least thats my experience.

oh yes, and don't be afraid to use the filters.
One thing thats good about printing larger prints is that it gives you more time with the print.

take care,
TEITS

GeoffHill said:

I've ordered a box of 20 x 16 today, I'll try that, I had to buy a new box of 8 x 10 aswell, after i turned the light on while the box was open yesterday

Click to expand...

If you havent tossed it, keep it. Most of the time only the top couple of sheets, and the edges of the rest are flashed. The large area in the middle can be used for test prints, non critical smaller stuff ( you may be able to use it happily for 5x7), etc. Process an unexposed sheet a few layers down to see how bad it really is, for you may still be able to use it for dialing in exposure, etc. Process an
un-flashed, unexposed sheet from your new box to get a baseline to judge the flashed paper with ( you can do a safelight test at the same time, by setting an opaque object on the unexposed paper for 5 minutes with your safelight on, and see of you get an outline.) Just a suggestion to ease the pain a bit, if you hadn't thought of it already.

I'd echo JBrunner's sentiments as well. Happened to me a week or so ago. Top sheet ruined, a few others with black edges but the further down the pile I go the less the problem. I have even found some sheets unaffected. If they were still in their black bag and it was open when the light was on, you should find that the bottom half of the sheets are completely unaffected so at worst you've got good 5x8s.

I'd be inclined to take from the bottom and work back up until you come to the affected sheets. Some of these may still be usable and those that are US can be exposed for solid black, developed and fixed and used for dodging tools and cut out for difficult shape dodgers.

On the question of grain I cropped a shot of two wooden falcons to a 5x8 print making the full neg about 12 x18. Virtually grainless . This was HP5+ at 250 in Perceptol. OK the fact that it was wooden birds helped disguise the grain and had it been a lot of sky or lighter colours then I think that grain would have been more obvious.

If you get a chance try the library for John Garrett's "Black and White Photography Masterclass. His seems to favour the HP family. Most are HP5+ but his career takes him as far back as HP3. Some shots are pushed 2 and even 3 stops. So he either favours grain or can put up with it rather than try other films. He uses what I understand to be fairly "grainy developers". Microphen is his favourite. He makes no mention of using Perceptol. Unsurprisingly grain starts to be apparent in 35mm at about 8x10 in his prints.

Interesting book. Helped me decide when grain might be my friend or enemy

pentaxuser

GeoffHill said:

I've ordered a box of 20 x 16 today, I'll try that, I had to buy a new box of 8 x 10 aswell, after i turned the light on while the box was open yesterday

Click to expand...

Ouch, that hurts. I've done it myself and I wasn't happy about it. The air in my darkroom turned blue from all the cussing that went on.

But on to your question. Grain is one of those things that sparks endless discussions that I think are mostly meaningless. Print size isn't the real issue. There are two very real and concrete factors that affect apparent grain for a given film/developer combination, degree of magnification and viewing distance. A large print will usually be viewed from a greater distance. Yes the grain will be large, and it will look nasty when viewed close up. Viewing the same print from a normal distance of 5 or 6 feet makes the grain, and a lot of other nasties (lens abberations, slight misfocus, etc.) disappear. A small portion of a 35mm negative enlarged to fill an 8x10 will show a lot of grain, and the accompanying nasties, simply because viewing distance for that size print is at around arm's length. The final arbiter of what is or is not acceptable is your taste and the impact you want your image to project. That is something only you can answer, and the only way to answer it is to try it and see. That said, there are some practical limits. Assuming you do everything right, and that means slow film, a tripod, excruciatingly precise focusing, and very careful film processing, excellent enlarging lenses coupled to a very precise, well aligned, and stable enlarger, perhaps the best you can do is about 20x before the image begins to break down badly. Under more normal circumstances, the practical limit is more like 10x or 12x. There is a reason medium and large format films are still popular. The degree of enlargement needed for heroic sized prints is greatly reduced, and so the image holds up better.