Beginner with old film camera for portraits

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Chris3094

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A few days i bought an old kodak film camera on ebay cause i really want to get into film photography. I bought the Kodak Retinette Type 022. I know the sunny 16 rule and kind of know what zone focusing is but when doing portraits i'm kinda confused on what to set the shutter speed to if i change my aperture. Cause of the camera not having a light meter nor a rangefinder, i'm kinda limited on my shallow knowledge of when to select the correct shutter speed/aperture in different lightning conditions especially if i want to do portraits.

Lets say i want to capture a portrait of a bird with its wings flapping in a really bright sunny environment with iso 400 film, how would i be able to freeze the subject + having the background blurred + knowing what shutter speed works without overexposing the image?
(sorry if this is in bits, wrote this out sleep deprived😅)
 

BrianShaw

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Hi Chris, welcome to the forum. At first I thought your interest was human subjects, which would be a lot easier than birds in flight. That is a really challenging subject. Sounds, though, as if you need basic education in photographic exposure. In all earnestness, I’d explore that and easier subjects first.


But if you really want to start with difficult subject first, there are a lot of resources:

 

Sirius Glass

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A few days i bought an old kodak film camera on ebay cause i really want to get into film photography. I bought the Kodak Retinette Type 022. I know the sunny 16 rule and kind of know what zone focusing is but when doing portraits i'm kinda confused on what to set the shutter speed to if i change my aperture. Cause of the camera not having a light meter nor a rangefinder, i'm kinda limited on my shallow knowledge of when to select the correct shutter speed/aperture in different lightning conditions especially if i want to do portraits.

Lets say i want to capture a portrait of a bird with its wings flapping in a really bright sunny environment with iso 400 film, how would i be able to freeze the subject + having the background blurred + knowing what shutter speed works without overexposing the image?
(sorry if this is in bits, wrote this out sleep deprived😅)



Welcome to APUG Photrio!!​
 

koraks

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Welcome to Photrio!

Cause of the camera not having a light meter nor a rangefinder
The sensible approach here would be to carry a separate light meter and a tape measure. Then set the aperture to an appropriate value for the desired depth of field, and the exposure time for correct exposure at that aperture. Set the focus to the distance obtained by the tape measure.

A more convenient approach would be to use the Retinette for other purposes (e.g. street photography) and use a modern modern rangefinder or reflext camera with integrated light meter for portraits.

Lets say i want to capture a portrait of a bird with its wings flapping in a really bright sunny environment with iso 400 film

It'll be a tiny bird on 35mm film with a 45mm lens, as most birds won't let you come close enough to get a decently-sized image. Again, a different camera is a more obvious choice.

Photography is a bit like carpentry. Of course, you can get planks from a log using a chisel and a hammer, but a saw makes more sense. Use the appropriate tools for the job!
 

Don_ih

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The "blurred background" can be attained by opening the aperture wide and taking a photo of something close - if your bird is flying, you won't be able to get that kind of blurred background (bokeh) with that camera. The other kind of blurred background would be from tracking the bird as it flies and taking the photo with the camera moving in sync with the bird. That would be possible with an slr and a long lens but not really with a normal-length lens like that camera has.

However, your camera is very good (if working properly). It can take very nice photos of people and stationary objects. It has a very good lens. You won't be disappointed if you don't immediately try to push the camera into doing things it's not good at. There are examples online of photos people have taken with that camera. Follow the advice of @BrianShaw and look up some basics of exposure.
 

rcphoto

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Only way to get a portrait of a bird is if it has been stuffed.

If you want to get into film, you might try and find some older lesson books from a photo 1 class to give you some basics to read through. There may also be some simple assignments that will get you more comfortable with a film workflow. I also advise on taking notes as you work through your roll of film. It will help you slow down and really think about what you are doing and why.

A brief word of advise off topic: Photrio is a really great community to ask specific questions. Broad questions, however, generally leave new users frustrated and more confused than when they started.
 

Chan Tran

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May I ask. You started photography with a film camera or you have done photography digitally before this?
 

Tel

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The "blurred background" can be attained by opening the aperture wide and taking a photo of something close - if your bird is flying, you won't be able to get that kind of blurred background (bokeh) with that camera. The other kind of blurred background would be from tracking the bird as it flies and taking the photo with the camera moving in sync with the bird. That would be possible with an slr and a long lens but not really with a normal-length lens like that camera has.

However, your camera is very good (if working properly). It can take very nice photos of people and stationary objects. It has a very good lens. You won't be disappointed if you don't immediately try to push the camera into doing things it's not good at. There are examples online of photos people have taken with that camera. Follow the advice of @BrianShaw and look up some basics of exposure.
+1: My uncle loved to shoot hummingbirds, stopping the action of the birds and throwing the background out of focus. To do that, he used a Leica M3 and typically shot at 1/1000th of a second with a wide-open aperture. The Retinette just wasn't designed for that sort of work.
 
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Chris3094

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May I ask. You started photography with a film camera or you have done photography digitally before this?

I started photography digitally in school before this but they didn't teach us anything about camera settings and how to use them.
 
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koraks

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would a light meter app on my phone work the same as an normal light meter?

It depends on the phone and the app. But many phones and apps present a workable alternative to a real light meter. It's worth a shot, and it's an affordable/free and easily accessible option to try.
 

AnselMortensen

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I started photography digitally in school before this but they didn't teach us anything about camera settings and how to use them.

Wow....😳

Can I recommend a good book for learning the basics of photography?
"Basic Black & White Photography" by Henry Horenstein.
 

Chan Tran

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I started photography digitally in school before this but they didn't teach us anything about camera settings and how to use them.

I guess you still have some digital camera. Use the digital camera and set it at the same ISO as the film you have. Whatever mode you use on the digital camera is OK. Check the settings the digital camera comes up with then set the same on your Kodak camera.
However, since you Kodak camera is very old the shutter speed can be off by 1 or more stops. My Retina IIa shutter speed is off by more than 1 stop.
 
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Chris3094

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I guess you still have some digital camera. Use the digital camera and set it at the same ISO as the film you have. Whatever mode you use on the digital camera is OK. Check the settings the digital camera comes up with then set the same on your Kodak camera.
However, since you Kodak camera is very old the shutter speed can be off by 1 or more stops. My Retina IIa shutter speed is off by more than 1 stop.

will my camera sensor size being four thirds change the out come if i copy the settings onto my kodak camera?
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Maybe some clarification might help us help you:
  • Portrait photography usually means head & shoulder shots of a person in a controlled setting. It varies, of course, it may be a photograph of the whole person and it may be candid rather than formal;
  • Wildlife photography is not referred to as portrait photography, though it may indeed be a head & shoulders picture;
  • Pet photography is, well, pet photography, though it is quite often a portrait of someone's pet.
What sort of photography are you planning on? At least, what sort are you planning on starting on?

If you want to take close-up pictures of birds then a Retinette isn't the most suitable camera. You will need to put a close-up lens on it so you can get within a foot or so of the bird, the camera may need to be hidden in a blind or vegetation and the shutter released remotely when you think the scene is as you want it - i.e. with bird in view.

If there was a good place for a digital camera, bird photography is it: the camera is dead quite' it can shoot continuously so timing the shot is easier - just pick a frame from the 'movie;' the cameras tend to be auto-everything so you don't have to rush out and change the f-stop if the sun goes behind a cloud.

Most bird photographers use monstrous telephoto lenses - 600mm f4.0 and such - so the camera doesn't have to be in-your-face paparazi style.

OTOH, it's only the things that are hard to do that are worth doing... You may not get a lot of good bird photographs with a Retinette but you will learn a lot about photography.
 
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Chris3094

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Wildlife photography is not referred to as portrait photography, though it may indeed be a head & shoulders picture;

oh i see now... always thought that if the background was blurred it would be within portrait photography
If you want to take close-up pictures of birds then a Retinette isn't the most suitable camera

ah ok, i do have an minolta x700 being repaired atm. Would that camera paired with a 70-210mm lens be more better suited than the retinette?
 

Donald Qualls

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would a light meter app on my phone work the same as an normal light meter?

Generally, this works fine (especially for negative film). I have a light meter app I use on my Pixel 7 pretty regularly; it lets me meter an average of whatever the phone's camera is seeing, a smallish spot (seems like about 5 degrees), or a "sensor" view from, I think, the selfie camera (not very sure, I haven't used that mode much). I've gotten good results with both B&W and color negative films using this app with a variety of cameras and films.

will my camera sensor size being four thirds change the out come if i copy the settings onto my kodak camera?

As long as the camera is set to the same ISO as the film you loaded into the Retinette, yes. You may or may not have manual control of ISO setting on the digital camera, however (the more auto-everything the camera is, the more likely this is to be an issue).

always thought that if the background was blurred it would be within portrait photography

Background blurring is due to something called "depth of field" -- I can shoot a portrait with foreground and background objects (up to a point) in focus, or set up so the focus has so little depth that when I focus on the near eye, the nose and cheekbone and ear are visibly blurred. For actual portraits, of people, I usually try to go somewhere between these extremes.

For bird photos, as others have mentioned, a Retinette isn't the best choice of camera, but if you have some birds that are used to coming to a window feeder and being watched from behind the glass you might get some good images. My first adjustable camera (also my first 35 mm) in 1972 was a Kodak Pony 135 with a closest focus distance of just over a meter -- but while I owned it I made some really nice macro images of tiny flowers, using a push-on closeup lens and some diopter arithmetic learned for the occasion. Almost no one who saw those images would believe they were made with that little, old (even in 1972) consumer camera, by a twelve year old kid. If you load ISO 400 film, you can still open up the lens enough to get some background blurring when near minimum focus, and you'll be able to use your highest shutter speed to mostly freeze the wing beats (at least of slower birds like pigeons, robins, and crows -- hummingbirds need a setup that can stop a bullet in flight).

For a question no one else seems to have addressed -- when you get an exposure setting, whether from Sunny 16, a light meter app on a phone, or an actual light meter (Reveni, among others, are making new light meters at somewhat reasonable prices, or it does work to transfer settings from a digital camera as long as you can control the ISO), you can shorten the shutter speed by a factor of 2 for each time you open the aperture by "one stop" -- which go by the square root of two (1.4, 2.0, 2.8, 4.0, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, etc.). If you have f/16 at 1/100, you get the same total amount of light on your film with f/11 at 1/200 or f/8 at 1/400 (and the difference between 1/100 and 1/125 or 1/400 and 1/500 is trivial; it's 1/3 stop and even slide film will tolerate that much difference). This relationship between aperture and shutter speed starts to break down when the shutter goes longer than about a second, with most films, but for anything you're likely to want photographing people or animals you'll be fine.
 

snusmumriken

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The sensible approach here would be to carry a separate light meter and a tape measure.

Unusual to find myself disagreeing with @koraks, but I can’t see any bird waiting around while you measure its distance with a tape measure.😉

I tackle distance estimation by imagining myself lying in the ground. I am just over 6ft, so I use the feet scale on the camera rather than metres. Three or four body lengths is easy to imagine and takes me to the infinity setting for wide-angle or normal lenses, so there’s no need to imagine smaller and smaller corpses stretching off to the horizon. Make a special mental note of the distance at which an average person fills the height of the viewfinder.
 

koraks

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Unusual to find myself disagreeing with @koraks, but I can’t see any bird waiting around while you measure its distance with a tape measure.😉

Some mode of fixating the bird might be required in this scenario.

For clarity, I do not condone cruelty to animals. A different camera system would in my view be the superior option.
 

Don_ih

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i do have an minolta x700 being repaired atm. Would that camera paired with a 70-210mm lens be more better suited than the retinette?

Yes. The slr with that lens zoomed in on the bird will get you the photos you're looking for. Learn how the meter on the camera works. You may want a tripod but should be ok handheld if there's lots of light.
 

MattKing

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Some mode of fixating the bird might be required in this scenario.

For clarity, I do not condone cruelty to animals. A different camera system would in my view be the superior option.

I believe that this simply shouts out for Monty Python:
 

Donald Qualls

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Let's not forget all the incredible paintings John J. Audubon made of birds all over the world. How did he get them to sit still while he painted (or at least sketched)?

Shotgun.
 
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