Beginner question regarding light meters

kruiwagen · Feb 15, 2018

Hi all,

I'm planning to go on a railway tour soon and I'm taking my Mamiya C220 TLR with me (along with my Canon T-90). The camera has ofcourse no built-in light meter so I was planning to buy one.

Now I don't know enough about light meters to decide which one to buy. I have a lightmeter app on my phone but I find it kinda risky to use. It worked with the TLR when I shot color negative, but I'm planning to shoot slide film so I want my exposures to be spot-on.

I read about spot meters, incedent light meters etc. But I'm mostly planning to shoot steam locomotives which will be covering almost the entire frame. And sice these locomotives will be mostly black, I'm worried that my exposure would not be correct if I use the wrong kind of metering.

Does anyone on the forum has experience with this?

Thank you in advance

AgX · Feb 15, 2018

You can apply a correction (via film-speed setting or even special dial) to your incident metering.
But in your case indeed incident metering seems most approriate.

Sirius Glass · Feb 15, 2018

The Gossen Luna Pro SBC will give you reflectance and incident measurements, low light level readings, correction for filter factors, Zone Systems measurements, and EVs [which you do not need for the Mamiya C220.]. It can also take accessories for spot meter measurements. Check out KEH.com for prices, great exchange and return policies.

I also have a Sekonic L308s which does reflectance and incident measurements, flash measurements, and EVs [which again you do not need.].

chriscrawfordphoto · Feb 15, 2018

If you can afford a new meter, buy new instead of used. I have a large collection of meters, and used ones I have bought often needed recalibration.

A good incident meter is the best solution for most people.

I have a series of tutorials I wrote on light metering that you might find interesting. They're digital oriented; I began working on a set of tutorials for metering with black and white film, but I got seriously ill at the beginning of January and have felt too sick to scan the film with the example photos I shot for them, and finish the writing. I'll have them done soon.
http://crawfordphotoschool.com/shooting-techniques/index.php

RalphLambrecht · Feb 15, 2018

kruiwagen said:
Hi all,

I'm planning to go on a railway tour soon and I'm taking my Mamiya C220 TLR with me (along with my Canon T-90). The camera has ofcourse no built-in light meter so I was planning to buy one.

Now I don't know enough about light meters to decide which one to buy. I have a lightmeter app on my phone but I find it kinda risky to use. It worked with the TLR when I shot color negative, but I'm planning to shoot slide film so I want my exposures to be spot-on.

I read about spot meters, incedent light meters etc. But I'm mostly planning to shoot steam locomotives which will be covering almost the entire frame. And sice these locomotives will be mostly black, I'm worried that my exposure would not be correct if I use the wrong kind of metering.

Does anyone on the forum has experience with this?

Thank you in advance

for your black steam engines, use a Zone System approach; measure them and then place them to render the black tone you desire; let the rest fall where it may.

btaylor · Feb 15, 2018

I would also suggest an incident meter, or one that measures incident and reflected (which most will). Calibration with used meters, especially analog models, can be an issue. A small and relatively inexpensive new meter to consider would be the Gossen Digisix. I think they are around $200 brand new. I also have and enjoy using the Gossen Luna Pro SBC, I had Gossen do the calibration and I know it's accurate. The phone app I have also works surprisingly well, but I prefer a handheld given a choice.

Second, TEST! Before you go on the tour find like subjects in similar lighting to your locomotives and shoot a roll of test exposures bracketing methodically. That's going to give you your best idea of where you want your exposure to be. Slide film is unforgiving as you know, and large black locomotives are likely going to need exposure compensation to get you the image you're looking for. Tests will also help you compensate for any shutter inaccuracies which are likely on an old leaf shutter. Good luck and have fun!

tomfrh · Feb 15, 2018

Iphone Light Meter should be fine. It's fairly smart and displays the image thus you can tell if it's trying to overexpose the black trains. Maybe meter something neutral as well, to verify those settings.

A digital camera in manual mode makes an excellent meter. Set the ISO to your film ISO, set aperture + exposure, click, chimp, repeat until histogram and image looks correct.

With slide film you have about 5-6 stops to work with. Anything below about -2.5 will come out black.

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 15, 2018

Remember that all light meters expose for 20% gray. If you take a reflected reading of a big black locomotive, it will also expose it as 20% gray on your iphone app. To remedy that issue, you would probably have to stop down 1 1/2 stops. If you use an incident meter, and not reflective one, it should be correct. I use my iphone app pretty often when I shoot cameras that don't have built-in meters, I sometimes use my iphone app.

Arvee · Feb 15, 2018

I have owned a bunch of different meters over the years (all the popular models) and I have concluded that the one I prefer for accuracy and reliability and uses an AA battery is also the best bang for the buck: Sekonic 308S, period!

jim10219 · Feb 15, 2018

The type of meter isn’t that important. What’s important is that you learn how to use it. Each method of metering will have benefits and faults. If you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your metering techniques, and learn how to compensate for them, you can get by with any properly functioning meter. Your phone app meter would probably be the easiest to use for black trains with slide film. A spot meter would be most accurate. And an incident meter would be quickest.

The spot meter, however, would take some mental calculations and a bit of time to measure the various zones in a scene. So there’s definitely some experience needed to get accurate readings quickly with it. And incident meter would give you an immediate reading, but would probably leave some areas underexposed (especially on the black of the trains), so you’d have to know that ahead of time and compensate accordingly. The phone app could quickly give you a few averaged readings which you could choose from to give you the best exposure. And the one I have (Pocket Light Meter) shows you an approximation of what you can expect on the phone’s screen during measurement. And while it’s probably the least accurate, with experience, you can easily learn it’s faults and how to compensate for them, just like every other meter.

The real trick is learning what the film is capable of and how to use the light meter to best balance available lighting conditions of the scene to fit within the limitations of the film.

Ko.Fe. · Feb 15, 2018

Do you have mobile phone? If so check for exposure meter application. It is usually free, but does a lot more than any old fashion exposure meter does and it is accurate. Read C-220 manual for exposure compensation on close ups.

wiltw · Feb 16, 2018

For someone with very little apparent understanding about light meters, I would suggest that the incident meter offers fewer opportunities for error, than any reflected light meter which is fooled by a subject and/or background which deviates from the 'middle tone average' that reflected light meters all assume!

But even incident meters need to be first understood as to the principles for proper use.

spijker · Feb 16, 2018

If you already have a light meter on your phone and a slr with a built-in meter, why not use those. You must have some experience on how accurate the T-90 light meter is and how to compensate the exposure when needed. Did you get well exposed images on your T-90 in the past? I think that the chance of getting a good exposure with the Mamiya will be higher using the light meters that you're used to then buying another light meter that you don't know. Unless you have time to try out the new meter and see the results, I'd say don't bother with a new meter.

And steam locomotives are not that tricky. The black compensates for bright skies and the bright red undercarriage of the German loks also helps compensating for the black of the rest of the locomotive. I'm a steamlok fan myself as well and I've only used camera's with a built-in reflective meter. Nowadays I only shoot BW negative film so the exposure is not very critical. But even in the days that I shot slide film, I relied on the built-in meter and that worked out well. There's some examples in my Photrio gallery and my website.

Where are you going? Hope you can post some results here. Good luck and have fun!

removed account4 · Feb 16, 2018

hi there kruiwagen

im guessing maybe your phone might work ( see how it compares to your canon ) but what you need to do, no matter what you use (phone, used or new meter )
go out with similar film you plan on using and photograph similar tonal scales and bring it to the lab to see what your lab
does ,, no meter, not even the best on the market will tell you the best way for you to expose your film and how your lab
will process those films. the meter ... any meter, will give you information / data and it is how you interpret that info to make your
exposures is the key ... for example ... your phone ( or handheld meter ) says 125@f8 .. but you know from your tests
and the way your lab soups your film you need to over expose by 1/2 stop or you are hosed ... and if you process yourself you probably know
that like with everything whatever developing times &c you read about in the internets give a lot of leeway seeing no one processes agitates exposes
has the same shutter calibrations &c &C &c the same way so everything is a starting point to be adjusted by the end user..

have fun on your trip !
john

LouisGR · Feb 16, 2018

You need an incident meter. For the black locomotives [and generally where the main subject is black], I suggest give 1/2 to 2/3 stop more exposure than your meter indicates, especially if you are using B&W negative film. This is to ensure that you get good shadow detail.

Cheers and have fun.

Louis

wiltw · Feb 16, 2018

'Black with detail' is about -2EV below (Zone III) where it is assumed 'midtone' is (Zone V) So if you aim a spotmeter at a black locomotive, to give -2EV less exposure than indicated, will place that at about the proper tonal level

tomfrh · Feb 17, 2018

I don't understand this business of "needing" an incident meter. Provided you understand what a reflective meter does it's perfectly fine. Personally I prefer reflective meters as so often you're not in the same light as the subject.

Arklatexian · Feb 17, 2018

kruiwagen said:
Hi all,

I'm planning to go on a railway tour soon and I'm taking my Mamiya C220 TLR with me (along with my Canon T-90). The camera has ofcourse no built-in light meter so I was planning to buy one.

Now I don't know enough about light meters to decide which one to buy. I have a lightmeter app on my phone but I find it kinda risky to use. It worked with the TLR when I shot color negative, but I'm planning to shoot slide film so I want my exposures to be spot-on.

I read about spot meters, incedent light meters etc. But I'm mostly planning to shoot steam locomotives which will be covering almost the entire frame. And sice these locomotives will be mostly black, I'm worried that my exposure would not be correct if I use the wrong kind of metering.

Does anyone on the forum has experience with this?

Thank you in advance

Would use an incident light meter, Stand next to the locomotive and take the reading by pointing the meter cone to where the camera will be. This should work with slide film. The "cone" will average all the light that is falling on the loco. Also, for some reason the locomotive will usually be "back lit". The incident meter will be best for this also....Good luck and have fun on the tour.........Regards!

Sirius Glass · Feb 17, 2018

tomfrh said:
I don't understand this business of "needing" an incident meter. Provided you understand what a reflective meter does it's perfectly fine. Personally I prefer reflective meters as so often you're not in the same light as the subject.

Incident meters are good for general readings, but they really shine when one is metering dark subject on a dark background or a light subject on a light background. To get good shadow detail on a black engine without having the exposure allowing too much light, an incident meter will tell the photographer about the light illuminating the black engine.

kruiwagen · Feb 19, 2018

Hi all,

I've read through some very helpfull replies. The first thing I'm going to do is test a roll of slide film in my C220 using my phone app as a light meter. I will also test it with the built-in meter from the T-90. I will then compare the two results and see if I can go without a light-meter if one of them (or both) are accurate enough. If not, I will go for a Sekonic S308 because I think it will cover all the things I need from a light meter for a decent price.

spijker said:
And steam locomotives are not that tricky. The black compensates for bright skies and the bright red undercarriage of the German loks also helps compensating for the black of the rest of the locomotive. I'm a steamlok fan myself as well and I've only used camera's with a built-in reflective meter. Nowadays I only shoot BW negative film so the exposure is not very critical. But even in the days that I shot slide film, I relied on the built-in meter and that worked out well. There's some examples in my Photrio gallery and my website.

Where are you going? Hope you can post some results here. Good luck and have fun!

Thank you, I will keep that in mind! I'm going to Bulgaria; they have the largest/strongest tank engine in Europe which is also black/red like German locomotives.

tomfrh · Feb 19, 2018

Another useful method is to use the palm of your hand as a grey card. You hold your hand perpendicular to the light and meter it using your reflective meter (eg your T70), same as you would an 18% grey card.

My hand is about +1.3 above 18% grey. If I spot meter my hand and it says +1.3 I know the exposure is fairly close.

Sirius Glass · Feb 19, 2018

tomfrh said:
Another useful method is to use the palm of your hand as a grey card. You hold your hand perpendicular to the light and meter it using your reflective meter (eg your T70), same as you would an 18% grey card.

My hand is about +1.3 above 18% grey. If I spot meter my hand and it says +1.3 I know the exposure is fairly close.

I have done that too. It works.

spijker · Feb 20, 2018

kruiwagen said:
I will keep that in mind! I'm going to Bulgaria; they have the largest/strongest tank engine in Europe which is also black/red like German locomotives.

You're going to see the 46.03 ? That's quite the beast. There's a few youtube video's on this machine. Exciting!

Beginner question regarding light meters

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