Beginner Question about Developing Negatives

[runswithsizzers]

I am taking university photography class where we develop our 120 b&w negatives using this workflow:
1. pre-wet
2. develop in R09 Rodinal (some use D76)
3. water stop bath
4. rapid fixer (concentrated, sold in bulk at the university store; diluted 1+4 for use; brand unknown)
5. water rinse
6. Sprint Fixer Remover (some use Kodak HCA; hypo clearing agent)
7. final wash
8. wetting with PhotoFLO
9. dry

Looking at Ilford's Beginner's Guide to Processing Film <link here> I see several differences, including:
- no pre-wet step,
- acid stop bath rather than water, and
- no fixer removal aid

I want to try using Ilford's ILFOTEC DD-X film developer in step #2, and I plan to use their ILFOSTOP in place of water in Step #3. My question is:
Is there any reason I should not continue to use whatever brand of bulk fixer I am presently using - or should I switch to Ilford's brand of fixer, as well?

I don't know how much variation there may be in fixer chemistry, so I would be inclined to continue to use the fixer removal aid (HCA) with the university supplied fixer - and omit that step if I use Ilford's fixer; make sense?

Can I assume the pre-wet step is optional, no matter which developer I use?

 

[removed account4]

Hi runswithsizzers

You can mix and match whatever chemistry you want. No need to worry about switching
to Ilford's product, unless you just want to... Fixer is fixer you don't really need to change
to a different Fix Remover either, ... unless you want to...
Regarding the pre-wet some say its optional and have never stopped doing it, others are religious about doing it
and some developers specifically say not to ( xtol for instance ) ... I find it useful
it softens the emulsion and gets it the right temperature for the developer, i'm not religious but, ...
i have been doing it like that since probably 1980...
AND
because there is almost nothing as fun as pouring the AH dye into the developer when I am done with it, and wathing it disappear !

good luck !
john

 

[Alan9940]

The need (or not) for a pre-wet will be argued forever. I do it because I've been doing it for 40 years and don't see any need to change. Water or acid stop is generally fine; a water stop is usually preferred when using a staining developer and some emulsions (typically the older soft emulsions) can develop pinholes if the acid stop is too strong. With these films I use half-strength acid stop. Fixer remover won't hurt anything. If you use an alkaline fixer, the the fixer remover is unnecessary.

Have fun!

 

[photog_ed]

And now for the opposing point of view... I have never prewetted in 50 years of developing film, and don’t see any need to change.

Ed

 

[GLS]

I want to try using Ilford's ILFOTEC DD-X film developer in step #2, and I plan to use their ILFOSTOP in place of water in Step #3. My question is:
Is there any reason I should not continue to use whatever brand of bulk fixer I am presently using - or should I switch to Ilford's brand of fixer, as well?

I don't know how much variation there may be in fixer chemistry, so I would be inclined to continue to use the fixer removal aid (HCA) with the university supplied fixer - and omit that step if I use Ilford's fixer; make sense?

Can I assume the pre-wet step is optional, no matter which developer I use?

Yes, pre-wetting is optional, and as already mentioned, with some films and/or developers the manufacturer recommends not to do it. However, unless specifically told otherwise it is safe to use a pre-wetting, and it can be useful in getting the film and tank up to the required development temperature.

Ilfostop can be used, sure. However, a 1% solution of citric acid is just as effective, and is cheap as dirt to use. Just be sure to mix it up as required rather than making up a huge amount for long term storage; mould loves to grow in citric acid solutions.

So-called rapid fixers are all pretty similar, and use ammonium thiosulfate as the fixing agent in place of sodium thiosulfate (hence why they have a faint odour). I'm sure the one you are already using is fine, so there's no need to switch unless Ilford's rapid fixer is cheaper.

I've never used a fixer removal aid for films, as I don't believe there is a need. It is more important for washing prints.

 

[jim appleyard]

Yes, some film makers say not to pre-soak, but it's generally up to the photographer. Fixer is fixer, to a point, they all remove unexposed silver from the film. However, rapid fixer does it faster and generally needs no fixer removal, (hypo clearing agent) and also wash out of the film faster.

Some developers recommend that you DO NOT use a stop bath, Diafine being one of them. You can get blisters on the film from the reaction of the acid stop with the sodium carbonate in the developer. You should be ok with Rodinal & D-76; just a FYI, tho'.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Yes, pre-wetting is optional, and as already mentioned, with some films and/or developers the manufacturer recommends not to do it. However, unless specifically told otherwise it is safe to use a pre-wetting, and it can be useful in getting the film and tank up to the required development temperature.

Ilfostop can be used, sure. However, a 1% solution of citric acid is just as effective, and is cheap as dirt to use. Just be sure to mix it up as required rather than making up a huge amount for long term storage; mould loves to grow in citric acid solutions.

So-called rapid fixers are all pretty similar, and use ammonium thiosulfate as the fixing agent in place of sodium thiosulfate (hence why they have a faint odour). I'm sure the one you are already using is fine, so there's no need to switch unless Ilford's rapid fixer is cheaper.

I've never used a fixer removal aid for films, as I don't believe there is a need. It is more important for washing prints.

Yes, some film makers say not to pre-soak, but it's generally up to the photographer. Fixer is fixer, to a point, they all remove unexposed silver from the film. However, rapid fixer does it faster and generally needs no fixer removal, (hypo clearing agent) and also wash out of the film faster.

Some developers recommend that you DO NOT use a stop bath, Diafine being one of them. You can get blisters on the film from the reaction of the acid stop with the sodium carbonate in the developer. You should be ok with Rodinal & D-76; just a FYI, tho'.

Thanks for your replys. I was not aware that pre-soak was such a hot-button issue or I would never have mentioned it.

My main concerns were:
- Are the developing steps and the fixing steps independent from one another, or do they need to be considered as a system?
and,
- Do some fixers need a clearing agent more than others?

Your replies have pretty much answered my questions. Thanks again!

After spring break, I will follow up with the photography instructor to find out more about the bulk rapid fixer we use. It's interesting that the class instructions recommend 2 or 3 minutes with agitation in the fixer clearing agent, followed by a final wash of at least 5 minutes under running water. Without using a using a fixer clearing agent, Ilford's recommends a final wash time of 5-10 minutes. So our class method adds another step which doesn't really seem to save much time or water.

 

[MattKing]

The "fixer clearing agent" is a good idea. It improves the efficiency of the final wash. The reason that matters is that an inadequate wash doesn't reveal itself quickly - some times you won't see the problem until months or years later.
If you are going to use a water rinse rather than a stop bath it should be a running water rinse.
Using either a stop bath or running water rinse improves the effectiveness of the fixer stage, and allows you to re-use the fixer for more rolls.
There are some minor advantages to using a pre-rinse, and very few recommendations against using one. In most cases, the manufacturers are either silent about the issue (e.g. the current data-sheet for X-Tol - sorry John ), or their recommendation is to the effect that a pre-rinse is unnecessary.
The most important thing to realize about using a pre-rinse (which I do by the way) is that it affects your times, so whatever you decide - pre-rinse or no pre-rinse - you need to stick with your decision, and be consistent.

 

[jim10219]

I only prerinse Rollei IR 400 due to the anti-halation layer (D76). I use water with a wee bit of white vinegar for the stop bath. I don't use fixer remover. The way my workflow goes, films spend plenty of time in the water bath, and prints spend plenty of time in the print washer.

Still, I would make any changes without consulting your professor first. They may want you to learn it their way first. Then, when you decide to do it your way, you can alter your process to satisfy your own needs for economy, efficiency, and results.

 

[jim appleyard]

Thanks for your replys. I was not aware that pre-soak was such a hot-button issue or I would never have mentioned it.

My main concerns were:
- Are the developing steps and the fixing steps independent from one another, or do they need to be considered as a system?
and,
- Do some fixers need a clearing agent more than others?

Your replies have pretty much answered my questions. Thanks again!

After spring break, I will follow up with the photography instructor to find out more about the bulk rapid fixer we use. It's interesting that the class instructions recommend 2 or 3 minutes with agitation in the fixer clearing agent, followed by a final wash of at least 5 minutes under running water. Without using a using a fixer clearing agent, Ilford's recommends a final wash time of 5-10 minutes. So our class method adds another step which doesn't really seem to save much time or water.

Developer and fixer are independent, if I'm reading you correctly. You can use any developer you want. Most popular devs will do the job for you, although there are certain classes (types or families) of devs out there. You have general purpose, like D-76, some are fine grain, some are accutance devs (Rodinal {this can also fall into general purpose}, speed increasing, etc., etc, etc. Stick with your Rodinal for now. You can use any fixer you want, they will all do the same job. Some just do it faster and with less wash time for the final step.

Pre-wash is only a big deal because people make it one. Do one or the other and don't tell anyone else!

Alkaline fixers do not need a clearing agent after their use. These are made with ammonium thiosulfate and it washes out faster than fixers made with sodium thio. They will both do the same job, tho'.

Get a copy of "The Darkroom Cookbook" by Steve Anchell and "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Anchell & Troop. They will tell you a lot about which developers and fixers do what to film and paper.

As suggested, follow the prof and learn what you are doing in class before changing.