Beginner needs help with printing on Fuji Color Archive paper

[Jamesf13]

Hey, I was just wondering if anyone could assist me with some colour printing techniques and basic knowledge. I have previously been printing from B&W 35mm negatives with tray processing and finally decided to buy a CPE-2 Jobo Processor to maintain temperature control for colour processing.

I have been using a C-41 process to develop colour negatives(both medium format and 35mm). I am using a LPL C7700MX colour enlarger and Fuji Crystal Archive RA4 paper with a Fuji RA4 Xpress kit to process.

These are the links:

Paper: http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...-crystal-archive-glossy-8-x-10in-pack-of-100/

Chemicals: http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...s/0/fuji/fuji-ra4-print-x-press-kit-5-litres/

I was told from firstcall that "Colour paper is not like black and white. It does not have grades or filtration values.

You need to know where to start and that depends on your enlarger and your method of colour printing – subtraction or addition."

He then recommended to subscribe to APUG.

My prints have been unsuccessful and far too red. I have tried altering the dial in settings on the colour head by reducing the magenta and even adding more cyan and yellow. So I was wondering if anyone had any advice for a beginner just starting to print colour negatives. I hear you chould not use cyan at all? Are their any basic starting dial in filter levels such as 45M, 45Y?

Thanks

 

[Jamesf13]

Beginner needs help with wet printing on Fuji Color Archive paper

Hey, I was just wondering if anyone could assist me with some colour printing techniques and basic knowledge. I have previously been printing from B&W 35mm negatives with tray processing and finally decided to buy a CPE-2 Jobo Processor to maintain temperature control for colour processing.

I have been using a C-41 process to develop colour negatives(both medium format and 35mm). I am using a LPL C7700MX colour enlarger and Fuji Crystal Archive RA4 paper with a Fuji RA4 Xpress kit to process.

These are the links:

Paper: http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...-crystal-archive-glossy-8-x-10in-pack-of-100/

Chemicals: http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...s/0/fuji/fuji-ra4-print-x-press-kit-5-litres/

I was told from firstcall that "Colour paper is not like black and white. It does not have grades or filtration values.

You need to know where to start and that depends on your enlarger and your method of colour printing – subtraction or addition."

He then recommended to subscribe to APUG.

My prints have been unsuccessful and far too red. I have tried altering the dial in settings on the colour head by reducing the magenta and even adding more cyan and yellow. So I was wondering if anyone had any advice for a beginner just starting to print colour negatives. I hear you should not use cyan at all? Are their any basic starting dial in filter levels such as 45M, 45Y?

Thanks

 

[perkeleellinen]

Great that he told you to subscribe here!

This article may help you:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[EASmithV]

Welcome to apug!

 

[Nick Zentena]

Fuji doesn't IIRC giving starting numbers.

Is you're exposure right on the print. Ignore the colour for now. Nail the exposure on a dry print. Dry not wet straight out of the tank. A little travel hair dryer will save time.

Too much red means you need to dial in more red on the head. But my brain doesn't remember what red is -(

 

[Ben 4]

Numbers From the Kodak Side

I started down this road a year ago, but have not used Fuji paper or chemistry. FWIW, Kodak recommends a starting filter pack of 55Y 65M (no cyan) with their supra endura paper. I find that with my set up (LPL dichroic enlarger, Ektacolor RA RT Developer-Replenisher at about 85 degrees F) I generally need more Y (usually in the mid-60s) and sometimes a bit less M (low 60s). I don't know if this will get you in the ballpark with Fuji papers, but you could give it a try.

If your prints are too red, you should be ADDING magenta filtration (and perhaps a bit of yellow) with a subtractive head. I found this Kodak publication helpful:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e4021/e4021.pdf

Stick with it and you will get it sorted out.

--Ben

 

[SuzanneR]

Two duplicate threads have been merged.

 

[Jamesf13]

Thanks everyone for the help, very much appreciated!

 

[pentaxuser]

Certainly worth getting a book on colour printing. At the very least that will help sort out filter combos for different colour casts. It's been a while since I did any RA4 with Fuji CA but as I recall I needed about 20 units more Y and M than with Kodak. Somewhere in the low 80s I think. When I say units I am referring to dialling the units on a dichroic head not using colour filters combinations in a B&W head but yu have a colour head anyway from what you have said. If you're serious about RA4 I'd recommend a colour analyser in the long term to assist your throughput of printing but if you want to actually learn by doing then get a colour chart and experiment and be prepared to use a lot of paper. Once you know what you are doing then an analyser will assist in producing consistency and will save on paper.

Take it slowly and methodically and don't pressurise yourself into feeling you have to produce prints that will make your friends go "Wow" after a couple of sessions. That way lies disappointment and wanting to give it up as a bad job and you have invested too much to allow that to happen.

Best of luck

pentaxuser

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi James

Here are a few tips that I think you need to do.
1. Learn the colour wheel
Red Green Blue - additive colours
Cyan Magenta Yellow - subtractive colours
by knowing what above colour combined will make up another is the first start
Understand Complimentary Colours
Red - Cyan
Green - Magenta
Blue - Yellow
On a dichroic enlarger one normaly uses only the Yellow and Magenta Dial
these two dials in combination can pretty well get you any colour.
The Cyan Dial is usually at 0 and only in extreme cases*cross process negs* do you really need to use Cyan Filter.
If you do use three filters.. lets say 10 cyan, 20 yellow 15 magenta, you must understand the first 10 cc of filtration in nuetral density and really not doing much to the colour other than reducing density by 1/3 stop.
*** 30 units of magenta = 1 stop density change depending which way you are dialing in the filter
*** 10 units of magenta + 1/3 stop
the cyan and yellow filter changes are nowhere near as dramatic in density


Once you have a chart ** Colour Wheel in your darkroom the next thing is to make one good print.
Start with a negative that has a good colour mix as well a nuetral grey and whites with details
You will find that usually the Yellow Dial will be higher than the Magenta dial
Start somewhere around 60 yellow 40 magenta.
Make a print and then make adjustments until you have a well balanced print.

IF PRINT LOOKS

yellow> increase yellow dial
blue > decrease yellow dial
green> decrease magenta dial
magenta> increase magenta dial
cyan > decrease yellow and magenta equally
red > increase yellow and magenta equally

make a series of prints until you are happy, this will be your first master print and settings should be recorded


SECOND SESSION

unfortunately colour is usually a mixture of various strengths and the above only gets you into a basic ball park.
Therefore a COLOUR RING AROUND is in order.

Start with the basic print and make sure you are still correct to the first settings.

THEN MY FRIEND

make a series of prints from the original setting with colour adjustments and make sure your processing is correct.. this should be done in a day and keep careful notes and on the back of each print indicate the dial settings.

You can google Colour Ring Around and you will get the idea as to what the changes should be.
But for good colour correction
combinations of the following will greatly help you
Yellow Green
Blue Magenta
Yellow Red
Magenta Red
Blue Cyan
Green Cyan

once you have made these prints you should then mount them on a board around the normal print and you will have a guide to look at for all subsequent negatives.
I have been colour correcting since 1974 and I can tell you this chart is the next best thing to sliced bread in combination with the colour wheel.
I have never found that a correction is only one cc or 5 cc of a paticular colour but a combination of two.


Blue Magenta --- can be tricky
Yellow Green -- can be tricky
Yellow Red
Magenta Red
Blue Cyan
Green Cyan tricky as well

by having a good quality ring around you will never be fooled by tricky negatives and will have confidence to make filter changes quite easily.


I hope this has not discouraged you , but if you really want to have fun with colour printing , having a good understanding on how to get good colour balance is critical.
There will be those who say get an analyzer to get in the ball park quickly, but by understanding colour and having a real world chart with your image showing the different colour possibility changes will become second nature.

One thing about colour printing.. Getting the correct density is most critical first.
As you will find a dark print will take on a red cast and a light print will take on a Cyan cast. This also can be part of your ring around as it always has been in my charts.

Every technician I have ever trained as well as myself make COLOUR RING AROUNDS ..
I still use them and I have a colour wheel at every workstation to remind me of the various colour components .

Hey, I was just wondering if anyone could assist me with some colour printing techniques and basic knowledge. I have previously been printing from B&W 35mm negatives with tray processing and finally decided to buy a CPE-2 Jobo Processor to maintain temperature control for colour processing.

I have been using a C-41 process to develop colour negatives(both medium format and 35mm). I am using a LPL C7700MX colour enlarger and Fuji Crystal Archive RA4 paper with a Fuji RA4 Xpress kit to process.

These are the links:

Paper: http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...-crystal-archive-glossy-8-x-10in-pack-of-100/

Chemicals: http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...s/0/fuji/fuji-ra4-print-x-press-kit-5-litres/

I was told from firstcall that "Colour paper is not like black and white. It does not have grades or filtration values.

You need to know where to start and that depends on your enlarger and your method of colour printing – subtraction or addition."

He then recommended to subscribe to APUG.

My prints have been unsuccessful and far too red. I have tried altering the dial in settings on the colour head by reducing the magenta and even adding more cyan and yellow. So I was wondering if anyone had any advice for a beginner just starting to print colour negatives. I hear you chould not use cyan at all? Are their any basic starting dial in filter levels such as 45M, 45Y?

Thanks

 

[Bob Carnie]

James
sorry for the long post but I should recommend a few places to look up this stuff.
Phil Davis wrote one of the best manuals on colour theory that has all this info in it. I use it in photo school but unfortunately lost my copie
Kodak has many manuals on colour therory and colour ring arounds.
start with these two sources, there are probably many others but remember..

the proper ring around does include subtractive colours mixed with additive colours to produce a second colour( yellow Magenta) -warm
as well it also includes an subtractive and additive colour (yellow green)
this is where it gets tricky and hard to tell the colours apart unless you have the chart

Bob

 

[Jamesf13]

Thank you very much Bob, it does indeed help making a colour ring around and after a day or so working hard at it my knowledge has increased tenfold. Much appreciated.

 

[Pitotshock]

I am going to apologize in advance for dragging this REALLY old post up again, but I have to thank Bob for one of the best summaries (Post #10 above) of colour printing I have seen on the web to date!

 

[afriman]

Hear hear!
It's REALLY important to acquire a basic understanding of what's going on before you dive into something like colour printing. I started when I was still a kid, but I had sufficient confidence after having read every library book on the topic I could get hold of. Some solid understanding of the theory (which really is not all that difficult once you grasp it) combined with some foreknowledge of the practicalities and a plan of how to deal with them, will really save you a lot of grief later on.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well we seemed to have helped the OP to the extent that he stayed with us for 4 days only in 2009 having then thanked us and then left us for what I can safely assume after 12 years to be forever .

I always wonder what causes " a one question, happy with answer then gone forever member" to leave us in four short days in late June, 2009 and never return.

pentaxuser

 

[Pitotshock]

four short days in late June, 2009 and never return.

That must have been some amazing advice, a couple of posts and they found everything that they ever needed to know! More likely they are just not the online discussion type people. I'm sure we all know a bunch like that, horrified to leave a trace of themselves on the interweb