Basics: difference between high and low values

silvercloud2323 · May 24, 2022

Hi everyone,

I was reading Ansel Adams book The Print, when it started to confuse me what he means by the basic thing of high & low values.

see page 79; The Print by A. Adams.
"the low-density areas (high values in the print) are determined primarily by exposure,
and higher densities (low print values) are then controlled by changes
in contrast. Thus we inspect the textured high values, about Value
VII-VIII, to determine the appropriate exposure time."

I think i reverse them.

Basically is a high value black or white?

Sirius Glass · May 24, 2022

lieven2323 said:
Hi everyone,

I was reading Ansel Adams book The Print, when it started to confuse me what he means by the basic thing of high & low values.

see page 79; The Print by A. Adams.
"the low-density areas (high values in the print) are determined primarily by exposure,
and higher densities (low print values) are then controlled by changes
in contrast. Thus we inspect the textured high values, about Value
VII-VIII, to determine the appropriate exposure time."

I think i reverse them.

Basically is a high value black or white?

View attachment 306454

This is a bit confusing
"the low-density areas (high values in the print) are determined primarily by exposure, Meaning bright areas of the subject.
and higher densities (low print values) are then controlled by changes Meaning dark areas of the subject.
in contrast. Thus we inspect the textured high values, about Value
VII-VIII, to determine the appropriate exposure time."

ic-racer · May 24, 2022

Shadows in the print are controlled by exposure in the camera (low negative density areas).

Highlights in the print (white areas ) are controlled by your negative development.

Nicholas Lindan · May 24, 2022

High values are the light greys and highlights: they are light grey/white in real life; dark/black on the negative; and light grey/white on the print.

Low values are the shadows, ditto: dark in real life; almost transparent on the negative; and dark on the print.

Just as exposure determines shadow detail when shooting film - keeping detail in the transparent areas of the negative - AA is saying print exposure determines detail in the 'transparent' highlight portions of the print.

AA didn't extend the Zone System to printing. If you want to try it, you might start here http://www.darkroomautomation.com/ex-faq.htm

Bill Burk · May 24, 2022

lieven2323 said:
Hi everyone,

I was reading Ansel Adams book The Print, when it started to confuse me what he means by the basic thing of high & low values.

see page 79; The Print by A. Adams.
"the low-density areas (high values in the print) are determined primarily by exposure,
and higher densities (low print values) are then controlled by changes
in contrast. Thus we inspect the textured high values, about Value
VII-VIII, to determine the appropriate exposure time."

I think i reverse them.

Basically is a high value black or white?

Key concept: You are reading a book entitled “The Print”, here the highlights of your photograph determines the exposure time for your print!

Vaughn · May 24, 2022

Bill Burk said:
Key concept: You are reading a book entitled “The Print”, here the highlights of your photograph determines the exposure time for your print!

Correcto! I tried to explain this to a professor one time, unsuccessfully.

Bob AZ · May 25, 2022

In everyday darkroom printing practice this means find a correct exposure for the white areas of the print, then look at the shadow areas of the print.
If you want to see more detail in the dark areas, make a print with lower grade filtration, ie go from grade 3 to grade 2, etc.
If the shadow areas seem too light, or the print lacks the 'punchiness' you want go up a grade or half grade
This is basic and general, but was a good starting point for me
I printed out something very similar to the above expert explanations and keep it in my darkroom

pentaxuser · May 25, 2022

Bob AZ said:
In everyday darkroom printing practice this means find a correct exposure for the white areas of the print, then look at the shadow areas of the print.
If you want to see more detail in the dark areas, make a print with lower grade filtration, ie go from grade 3 to grade 2, etc.
If the shadow areas seem too light, or the print lacks the 'punchiness' you want go up a grade or half grade
This is basic and general, but was a good starting point for me
I printed out something very similar to the above expert explanations and keep it in my darkroom

That's pretty succinct and very practical, Bob

pentaxuser

silvercloud2323 · May 25, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
This is a bit confusing
"the low-density areas (high values in the print) are determined primarily by exposure, Meaning bright areas of the subject.
and higher densities (low print values) are then controlled by changes Meaning dark areas of the subject.
in contrast. Thus we inspect the textured high values, about Value
VII-VIII, to determine the appropriate exposure time."

Thank you so much Sirius.

DREW WILEY · May 25, 2022

Same ole thing. Expose for the shadow values you need, then develop the film for the appropriate contrast you need to reproduce the highlights well too. The deepest shadows will be relatively thin or almost clear in the negative, and the highlights relatively dense.

Printing it in the darkroom; the thin areas in the negative (shadows) become blacker in the print, while the thick or more dense areas in the negative (the highlights) come out brighter because more light is blocked by the greater density itself.

Today, most papers are variable contrast, so there's really no need to even worry about Grade 2 or Grade 3 like back in the days of mainly graded paper. The contrast is controlled by the color of the light itself instead, yellow versus magenta.

Sirius Glass · May 25, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Same ole thing. Expose for the shadow values you need, then develop the film for the appropriate contrast you need to reproduce the highlights well too. The deepest shadows will be relatively thin or almost clear in the negative, and the highlights relatively dense.

Printing it in the darkroom; the thin areas in the negative (shadows) become blacker in the print, while the thick or more dense areas in the negative (the highlights) come out brighter because more light is blocked by the greater density itself.

Today, most papers are variable contrast, so there's really no need to even worry about Grade 2 or Grade 3 like back in the days of mainly graded paper. The contrast is controlled by the color of the light itself instead, yellow versus magenta.

The problem is not the process. It is poorly worded descriptions which were written to be understood only by people who already know what was meant. A basic technical writing course.

DREW WILEY · May 25, 2022

Those old AA beginner manuals have bee re-edited numerous times; perhaps more is due. I gave away my set a long time ago, but did keep "Examples", which is mainly pictures and lore.

Bill Burk · May 26, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Those old AA beginner manuals have bee re-edited numerous times; perhaps more is due. I gave away my set a long time ago, but did keep "Examples", which is mainly pictures and lore.

Our thread here is about the unexpected words where Ansel Adams wrote: Expose for the high values. At first it sounds like a misquote, until you realize @liven2323 is reading from The Print.

Doremus Scudder · May 26, 2022

Yep, in a print, the "low-density areas" are the whites and highlights and the "higher densities" are the darker tones. I think the OP was somehow introducing negative densities into the mix where they don't belong.

So, for the record:

Low densities in the negative are the shadow areas (darker areas of the scene), which then let more light through to the print resulting in a "higher density" area, i.e., a shadow value. And vice-versa.

AA here is just discussing print densities.

Doremus

Saganich · May 26, 2022

Think
Density = Negative because it transmits light
Value = Print because it reflects light. I think the value is a poor description...I like brightness better as it's the opposite of density.

silvercloud2323 · May 27, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
Yep, in a print, the "low-density areas" are the whites and highlights and the "higher densities" are the darker tones. I think the OP was somehow introducing negative densities into the mix where they don't belong.

So, for the record:

Low densities in the negative are the shadow areas (darker areas of the scene), which then let more light through to the print resulting in a "higher density" area, i.e., a shadow value. And vice-versa.

AA here is just discussing print densities.

Doremus

Hi Doremus,

I'm just trying to understand the the sometimes confusing difference between low and high.
Do you mean then ,there's a difference between high and low, depending upon you talk about the negative or if you talk bout the print??
thanks.

Vaughn · May 27, 2022

Density refers to the amount of silver exposed and developed on the negative or the print (per unit of area). High density of silver = black. Low density = not much silver (clear on the neg, paper-white on the print.)

Sirius Glass · May 27, 2022

lieven2323 said:
Hi Doremus,

I'm just trying to understand the the sometimes confusing difference between low and high.
Do you mean then ,there's a difference between high and low, depending upon you talk about the negative or if you talk bout the print??
thanks.

One has to read the high-low in context of a the subject, the negative and the print. Yes, the wording and writing is terrible and confusing.

Doremus Scudder · May 27, 2022

lieven2323 said:
Hi Doremus,

I'm just trying to understand the the sometimes confusing difference between low and high.
Do you mean then ,there's a difference between high and low, depending upon you talk about the negative or if you talk bout the print??
thanks.

Only that, in reference to the brightnesses in the original scene, the low/high density areas are reversed in the negative compared to the print.

We have to keep in mind that (as Vaughn points out) "low density" just means less developed silver in the negative or print and vice-versa.

A dark area in the original scene ends up being a low-density area on the negative (it gets less light) and then a high-density area on the print (because it gets more light through the low-density part of the negative). Conversely, a light area in the original scene ends up being a high-density area on the negative (lots of light hitting the negative) and then a low-density area in the final print (not much light hits the print).

That's the whole idea of "negative," where the densities are "reversed," vs. "positive," where the densities correspond more intuitively to the original scene (remember, white areas of the print, which correspond to bright areas in the original scene, are low-density).

Clearer now?

Doremus

DREW WILEY · May 30, 2022

Well, it was a long time ago, but I do recall being confused by the wording myself when I first read that AA book. A simple diagram or picture adjacent to the page showing both a negative and its print, with appropriate terminological labeling, would have cleared that up that ambiguity. Even the basic Kodak guides did that, but didn't apply AA's personal ZS jargon. It would have been better if he had only spoken of print density being INVERSE to negative density, because that's what is really going on.

"Value" in his jargon has more to do with the original scene itself :
high values equate to bright things on the overall scale, like snow for example; low values to deep portions of the scene like shadows. Then there are the mid-tones. Of course, to make things even more complicated, "tone" and "value" in this sort of ZS dictionary has a different meaning than for a painter working with pigments. Here "tonality" refers to placement with the full continuum of gray all the way in between the brightest highlights and deepest shadows.

Basics: difference between high and low values

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