Barnack Leicas

cliveh · Sep 1, 2021

Do you think it would be a valid comparison to compare a unique musical instrument like a Stradivarius violin to a Barnack Leica? I would suggest it is.

Wallendo · Sep 1, 2021

I don't think Stradivarius made thousands and thousands of violins.

Dan Fromm · Sep 1, 2021

cliveh said:
Do you think it would be a valid comparison to compare a unique musical instrument like a Stradivarius violin to a Barnack Leica? I would suggest it is.

I'm a string player -- cello -- and a photographer. I've used ancient Leicas. There's no comparison between good instruments and cameras. None at all.

Nicholas Lindan · Sep 1, 2021

I don't think you can reverse engineer an old violin - though I understand people are trying. As for an old Leica - there is no magic to a camera or a lens, you simply need the drive and the money to make copies.

cliveh · Sep 1, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
I'm a string player -- cello -- and a photographer. I've used ancient Leicas. There's no comparison between good instruments and cameras. None at all.

Why not?

Cholentpot · Sep 1, 2021

cliveh said:
Why not?

Because one can make an excellent artistic photo using an entry level whizbang 90's plastic fantastic SLR like a Canon Rebel, it can be argued that one can be freed up of the hangups of an old camera and make even better work.

While it is possible to squeeze music out of an entry level guitar, say a Yamaha acoustic starter pack that has everything you need for $150, the music will play and sound better - generally - out of a nice Taylor or Martin. Also, the Yamaha will wear out far faster than the higher end guitar. I've worn out cheaper guitars, in fact I enjoy playing the cheap guitars and I own a few of them over owning a single expensive one. However, my income is not based on playing music so I don't care. If I was a gigging musician or a studio bum I'd invest in a better guitar.

Electric guitars are a different story. They're all trash, some are just less trash than others.

Paul Howell · Sep 1, 2021

60 years ago Barnack Leicas were fine cameras, one of the best money could buy in 35mm. Times have changed, lens are better, computer aided design and manufacturing, integrated electronics, even a last generation bottom feeder film cameras will outperform a 70 year old Leica. I had a IIIG, nice camera, worked well but when in the field I almost always packed a Canon 7S. If I were to compare any film camera to a high end musical interment it would Swiss Alpa, made in very small numbers jeweled movements, the Kern Swiss 50 macro likely the best 50mm ever made.

Dan Fromm · Sep 1, 2021

cliveh said:
Why not?

Fair question. String instruments, and for that matter, bows, are individuals. Cameras of the same make and model in good order are as alike as the proverbial peas in pods.

Arthurwg · Sep 1, 2021

I don't think it's a good comparison but that doesn't matter. Barnack are marvelous devices, and using one today is both challenging and instructive. They are a way to get back to photography's essentials, and they make you use your brain. They are also fun.

mshchem · Sep 2, 2021

Maybe a better question is "Are old Deardorff view cameras .....?" The old growth virgin Central America Mahogany forests are gone. I have an untouched "survivor" V8 that I bought from a very old piano tuner.
Pre WWII, I've easily resisted the urge to "restore it" I think it's got the original bellows.
I wouldn't know one violin from another so can't understand a comparison.

Nitroplait · Sep 2, 2021

As much as I love my IIIF my first thought when I load it and start shooting is how blessed we are that camera innovation has moved along. I am happy that we are not stuck with Barnack Leicas,
I think if a violinist could choose any one violin, most would ask for a Stradivarius. If a photographer could choose one camera, only a few masochists would select a Barnack.

henryvk · Sep 2, 2021

How many Stradivarius' violins still in existence? 650? How many Barnack Leicas? >100,000?

Don_ih · Sep 2, 2021

cliveh said:
Do you think it would be a valid comparison to compare a unique musical instrument like a Stradivarius violin to a Barnack Leica? I would suggest it is.

I'm actually wondering why you would think that it is?

In general, a musician chooses a particular instrument because it sounds and plays a certain way - the way he or she wants for that particular music. If anything, you might be able to say a lens does that to a photograph, but not a camera.

RDW · Sep 2, 2021

In blind testing, neither listeners nor violinists found that the sound of a Stradivarius was superior to that of a high quality modern violin:

https://www.science.org/news/2017/05/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check
https://www.pnas.org/content/109/3/760
https://www.pnas.org/content/114/21/5395

How the violin is played is much more important...

Dan Fromm · Sep 2, 2021

RDW said:
In blind testing, neither listeners nor violinists found that the sound of a Stradivarius was superior to that of a high quality modern violin:

https://www.science.org/news/2017/05/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check
https://www.pnas.org/content/109/3/760
https://www.pnas.org/content/114/21/5395

How the violin is played is much more important...

Are you a string player? If so, at one time you were a beginner. The biggest problem beginners face is learning how to make the instrument speak. I've played "cigar boxes," which are inexpensive and what beginners usually start with. Getting one to speak isn't easy. An experienced player can do it, and will hate the instrument. A beginner will simply be frustrated, and will hate itself. Better instruments are much easier to play.

henryvk · Sep 2, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Better instruments are much easier to play.

Yes, but they are also subject to the law of diminishing returns. Past a certain point they don't get *that* much better.

Wallendo · Sep 2, 2021

The violin has a defined ideal sound, and to many, that is the sound of a Stradivarius. As a result, there have been few changes over the years in violin technology.
With photography, there has long been a drive to constantly improve technical quality and ease of use. This has lead to technologically improved film cameras. Aside from Jean-Luc Ponty, there hasn't been much demand for new tech violins.

Jim Jones · Sep 2, 2021

I considered the several Leicas I've owned over many decades to be tools: fine tools indeed, but still merely tools that can be (and were) replaced. Owning a Stradivarius would mean the responsibility of caring for an irreplaceable treasure. Not many people should be trusted with this.

Auer · Sep 2, 2021

Arthurwg said:
I don't think it's a good comparison but that doesn't matter. Barnack are marvelous devices, and using one today is both challenging and instructive. They are a way to get back to photography's essentials, and they make you use your brain. They are also fun.

Regardless what camera you use you should use your brain, or at least have good instincts and situational awareness.

Photography's "essentials" can be experienced with a cellphone. They are also fun.

Cholentpot · Sep 2, 2021

henryvk said:
Yes, but they are also subject to the law of diminishing returns. Past a certain point they don't get *that* much better.

I agree with this. A standard Strat will basically sound just as good as a bells and whistles Gucci strat that costs almost as much as my car. Nothing is gained past $XXX.XX dollars. Finish might be nicer but it'll play more or less the same.

Arthurwg · Sep 2, 2021

Auer said:
Regardless what camera you use you should use your brain, or at least have good instincts and situational awareness.

Photography's "essentials" can be experienced with a cellphone. They are also fun.

You have a brilliant command of the obvious, and you're good at obfuscating the point. But photography's essentials are not experienced with a point and shoot camera like a cellphone. And you don't have to use your brain either. But I'm glad you also have fun.

Auer · Sep 2, 2021

Arthurwg said:
You have a brilliant command of the obvious, and you're good at obfuscating the point. But photography's essentials are not experienced with a point and shoot camera like a cellphone. And you don't have to use your brain either. But I'm glad you also have fun.

Don't be scared, there are many paths to the same place here.
Brain use is a personal choice, do what you like.

Arthurwg · Sep 2, 2021

Auer said:
Don't be scared, there are many paths to the same place here.
Brain use is a personal choice, do what you like.

My advice: Stay away from Barnacks. You won't appreciate them.

Huss · Sep 2, 2021

cliveh said:
Do you think it would be a valid comparison to compare a unique musical instrument like a Stradivarius violin to a Barnack Leica? I would suggest it is.

Why, how much is a CLA on a Stradivarius?

RDW · Sep 2, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Are you a string player? If so, at one time you were a beginner. The biggest problem beginners face is learning how to make the instrument speak. I've played "cigar boxes," which are inexpensive and what beginners usually start with. Getting one to speak isn't easy. An experienced player can do it, and will hate the instrument. A beginner will simply be frustrated, and will hate itself. Better instruments are much easier to play.

But isn't that more like comparing the Leica with a Holga? A beginner handed, say, a humble K1000 would probably have an easier time of it than one given a IIIa, and the Pentax standard lens would probably test better than a Summitar. The LTM cameras are fun to use, and you can learn to work with their idiosyncrasies, but do they really bring anything to the final image that you wouldn't get with any modern camera of decent quality, even a much cheaper one?

Disclaimer: I'm not a violinist, but I do have several LTM cameras. Two of them even work.

Barnack Leicas

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