Bag bellows v. recessed lens board

NavyMoose · May 14, 2008

I am thinking of getting a used Fujinon-SW 90mm lens f/8. I use a Toyo 45C monorail view camera. I am trying to determine if I can use this lens with a recessed lens board instead of spending a couple of hundred more for a bag bellows.

Thank you!

Navy Moose

RobC · May 14, 2008

get the bellows. using a recessed lens can sometimes be a real PITA because of the linkage required to fire the shutter going out of alignment and also because of getting at the aperture ring. It really depends on how recessed the lens would really be and whether you can get at everything without putting a mechanical linkage to fire the shutter. IMHO

NavyMoose · May 14, 2008

The lens is a Fujinon-SW 90 f/8. The lens board is recessed about 38mm, or so. I've got a cable release, are you talking about something other than that for the linkage?

The bellows is considerably more expensive than the recessed lens board. When I shoot LF, I can put up with a PITA because I'm not shooting for speed.

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm a newbie with LF. I've shot only eight sheets of film.

Thanks!

Navy Moose

RobC · May 14, 2008

I don't know that lens so someone else may be able to better advise you. However, with recessed lensboards you often need either a cable release with a bend at the end or a linkage system because the fix point on the lens for the cable release is inside the recess so a straight cable release won't fit. And also the aperture ring is recessed so it can be difficult to read what its set at and adjust it because getting fingers into the recess is tricky.
If you have the possibility of seeing the lens fitted to the lensboard then you can make a judgement for yourself.

Pinholemaster · May 14, 2008

Depends on how flexible your present bellows is. Recessed board are awkward. I don't use one on my 90, only my 58 mm. If you need movement, and your present bellows gets in the way, get a bag bellows.

epatsellis · May 15, 2008

Long before I'd spend a few hundred on a bag bellows, I'd find a ratty old standard bellows and make a bag bellows, Mine came out quite nicely, and as a bonus, I can use any length lens up to a 210 with it, with ease.

erie

resummerfield · May 15, 2008

Pinholemaster said:
Depends on how flexible your present bellows is. Recessed board are awkward. I don't use one on my 90, only my 58 mm. If you need movement, and your present bellows gets in the way, get a bag bellows.

I'll agree with this. I use the standard bellows for a 90 and a 75, with a flat lensboard. Get the lens and mount it on a flat board, and judge for yourself.

Nick Zentena · May 15, 2008

NavyMoose said:
The lens is a Fujinon-SW 90 f/8. The lens board is recessed about 38mm, or so.

That's a deep board. How big is your lensboard? I'd be leery of using something that deep with a Linhof type board.

Does your camera have a min extension of over 130mm?

eddym · May 15, 2008

I had a bag bellows for my first 4x5 (an Omega), and used it with a 90mm Super Angulon. I hated it. It was a real PITA to switch the bellows every time I wanted to mount the lens. I have a recessed board now for the 75mm SA that I use with my Technika; it's a little fussy, but at least all I have to do is switch the lens and shoot.

Nick Zentena · May 15, 2008

If you shoot mostly wide then you can make the bag bellows your stock. With some bag bellows you can do normal to wide just fine.

Tomf2468 · May 15, 2008

It really comes down to how "tight" the $$$ situation is and what you shoot. If your interest is in architecture, I doubt you will ever be truly happy without a bag bellows. Architecture shooters "bend" the camera quite hard. If your interest is in landscape, you may be OK with just a recessed lensboard. Landscape shooters don't typically use wild camera movements. Yes, those are generalities!

Marco B · May 15, 2008

resummerfield said:
I'll agree with this. I use the standard bellows for a 90 and a 75, with a flat lensboard. Get the lens and mount it on a flat board, and judge for yourself.

Another vote in for first trying a normal flat lensboard. I use my 75mm Schneider Kreuznach Super Angulon on my Tachihara with a flat lensboard and normal bellows without major issues. Ok, I loose about 2 cm's of movement, but there is still over one centimeter of movement left, and at these short focal length's, the 1.3 cm does do something significant.

Try it out and see if it's enough for you before spending xxx $ on something you may not need.

mw4 · May 15, 2008

I'm a newbie to LF, too, and recently purchased my first 4x5 and made my decision partly on the camera having an interchangeable bellows. When considering how I might add a wide angle lens to my kit (finances permitting), I too have been thinking about this question and I wonder how difficult it is to make a bag bellows. Haven't done any sort of research about it but I imagine it might be possible???

epatsellis · May 15, 2008

Not terribly hard to make a set of bag bellows, once you see a few it starts to make sense. Harder is finding the frames, Toyo and Sinar/Horseman use the same attachment for bellows as for lensboards, so there's one possibility, though KEH tends to have regular bellows full of pinholes pretty cheaply, and it's easier to use those frames. I'm not sure about other makes bellows attachment.

erie

NavyMoose · May 15, 2008

Tomf2468 said:
It really comes down to how "tight" the $$$ situation is and what you shoot. If your interest is in architecture, I doubt you will ever be truly happy without a bag bellows. Architecture shooters "bend" the camera quite hard. If your interest is in landscape, you may be OK with just a recessed lensboard. Landscape shooters don't typically use wild camera movements. Yes, those are generalities!

I will be using the LF camera for landscapes. From what I'm reading here, if I use a flat lens board and my normal bellows, I can lose some movement. My concern is will I miss this movement while shooting landscapes?

I did see a decent supply of recessed lens boards at KEH. I want to do more research on the extra hardware I might need on the lens with this kind of board.

Tomf2468 · May 15, 2008

Well, I have the Toyo 45F. That is, I think, an earlier version of your 45C. Everything is interchangeable between our cameras. And, my 90mm is on a flat board (although I always use it with a bag bellows). One note (warning), my bellows are not original. They were remade by Western Bellows in California (nice work too).

I just set it up (normal bellows and 90mm on a flat board). If I really "scrunch" the bellows I can get about 1 inch (25mm) of rise or fall at infinity focus. I can get 25 degree or a touch more of tilt or swing at infinity focus. That is really pushing the bellows, probably best to count on 3/4 those numbers in order to keep your bellows happy over time. Those movements would make "many" landscape shooters happy.

It actually does better than I would have thought!

At the risk of repeating myself, my camera doesn't have original bellows. It too many years ago for me to remember if the original Toyo bellows had more or less movement when pulled together tightly.

Tom

epatsellis · May 15, 2008

Having owned several Toyos, and presently an F, the standard bellows and a 90 are almost doable, as long as you only need a few degrees of tilt or swing. As I stated previously, I made a bag bellows that allows me to use up to a 210 if needed, cost was minimal, less than $30 (not counting the bellows frames).

erie

Logan Group · May 15, 2008

I shoot with both recessed lens boards and a bag bellows when using wide angles to shoot interior architecture. I would try a flat lens board for a 90mm shooting landscapes. Im generalizing here but the requirements for movements at that focal length / subject shouldnt be an issue but I have to admit Ive never shot with a Toyo. I shoot with Sinar and a Zone VI and used a recessed board on my Sinar and a flat board on my Zone VI when shooting with a 90mm.

If you do want a recessed lens board check out Bromwell Marketing (obligatory comment that I have no affiliation with this company) at http://www.bromwellmarketing.com/ . I have bought lens boards several times from him in the past and hes a pleasure to do business with. His boards are not as sleek and beautiful as a factory Sinar board but they work well at a fraction of the price.
If you do get a recessed lens board a must have item is a Gepe short cable release for recessed lens boards. You can see one here at http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=233735&is=REG (obligatory comment that I have no affiliation with this company). These are not a lot of money but when you factor price per inch this is the most expensive cable release you will ever buy. However I could not live without mine and have one on all my recessed boards.

Again, most people shoot a 90mm on a flat board all the time. Try it first.

NavyMoose · May 15, 2008

Hi Tom,

Thank you for the information! Using my Toyo bellows and a flat lens board will help me get more bang for my buck. Once I get the lens, I can test it and see how well it works and the limitations.

Navy Moose

removed account4 · May 15, 2008

hi navy moose -

i used a 90mm super angulon on a toyo cx
all the time. flat board no bag.
i know it is a different camera and different lens,
but i think you will be fine...

have fun

john

NavyMoose · May 16, 2008

Hello All,

Thank you all for the responses, the information is great.

Today, I bought a Caltar II-N MC 90mm f/6.8 and an Omega flat lens board. I hope to get it by next week so I can bring it out to play.

Have a good weekend and stay dry.

Navy Moose

Bag bellows v. recessed lens board

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