Bad paper / paper developer combinations?

[Marco B]

Hi all,

Up to recently, I have actually not much been experimenting with different papers or paper developers. Back in the days they were still alive, I used Agfa MCC mostly, in combination with Agfa Neutol. After that mostly Ilford Warmtone FB/RC and Ilford MG4 RC in combination with Ilford Multigrade developer.

Actually, there aren't many papers readily available here any more, as in most parts of the world.

However, recently I visited a new shop that had Kentmere papers in different varieties, both FB (Fineprint) and RC (VC Select) and even different finishes (glossy and matt).

So I bought a box of VC Select glossy to try out, and also decided to give a bottle of Harman / Ilford Warmtone developer a try, that I had already bought before, but never gotten round to try out.

Well, that turned out to be a bad combination... :rolleyes:

The first thing I noticed was that it needed an excessively long development time to get pure black (well, as black as this paper gets, as with Ilford MG4 papers, this paper just doesn't get as black as Ilford Warmtone paper or as Agfa's MCC papers would get, probably due to a lower silver content), it took about 3 minutes...

Also, contrast was not particularly good, whatever I did I couldn't get proper detail and contrast in shadows.

Curious and thinking the developer might have gone bad, I tried some Ilford Warmtone RC paper in the same developer. Bang!!! 90 seconds and deeeeep black and good contrast

I then took a bottle of a "normal" developer (not warmtone) and tried it with the Kentmere paper. Bang again!! 90 seconds, black and normal contrast

Is this really such a baaaaad combination? :confused:

I always assumed, reading messages here about people using warmtone and cooltone developers on different types of papers to change the "look" (warmer, cooler), that actually all of these developer types could be used with any type of paper without major issues. However, that doesn't seem to be totally true. Although I did manage to get some reasonable images from the Kentmere / warmtone developer combination, I stil think it's far outperformed by the normal developer (I used a Dutch brand this time, but probably very similar to Ilford Multigrade)...

Are there any other paper / paper developer combinations to "avoid"? :confused:

And does anyone actually have an explanation for the poor performance of VC Select in this warmtone developer? (I vaguely remember reading somewhere that some papers had "developer enhancers" in them?, maybe VC Select doesn't have it?)

By the way, I love how Kentmere paper tones! Beautiful browns and purples with sepia and selenium, as with Ilford Warmtone and Agfa MCC, but a much cheaper paper.

 

[david b]

Sorry if I missed it, but what temperature was the developer at?

I've noticed that the Ilford WT needs to be at least 68 degrees but probably a little warmer in temperature.

I used this developer with Ilford warm tone paper and noticed 3 plus minute dev times to get decent contrast.

 

[Marco B]

eeeh... that's about 19 degrees Celcius isn't it??? I'am on the other site of the ocean

Yes, it was at a proper temperature... 20C, 68-73F or so.

3 plus is long for Ilford Warmtone paper, was your paper FB or RC? As I wrote in the first post, the Ilford Warmtone RC developed very quickly, only 90 seconds. 3 plus seems more a time for fiber based paper...

 

[Marco Buonocore]

I found Ilford Warmtone FB in Dektol 1:2 to be a repulsive combination. Olive green tones on a cream base. Yikes.

 

[Ian Grant]

Sometimes using a Warm-tone developer on a bromide paper produces muddy blacks. To get warmer tones you are trying to achieve finer grain and one method is overexposre & underdevelopment.

I had a similar problem with some Kodak paper last month, and couldn't get good blacks in ID-78, but I overcame the problem by toning in IT-8 which is a dichromate bleach/pyrocatechin redeveloper toner which unlike most toners has a marked intensifying properties. It aslo gave me the very rich Olive browns I required which work perfectly on a white base.

Marco, I can understand your repulsion of the Ilford Warmtone/Dektol combination, if it wasn't for the cream base colour I'd have switched to the paper some time ago.

Ian

 

[John Bragg]

Hi, Marco.

I use Tetenal Variospeed W/T and this developer is first rate with Ilford Warm tone paper. Also I was told a long time ago, (by someone with great darkroom experience), that the film you use, as well as the developer and paper, form a triangular relationship with each contributing to the overall look and it pays to only change one component at a time. It gets oh so confusing otherwise.

 

[Marco B]

Thanks all for the responses. To avoid confusion: there are 2 Marco's here on this thread now! (I once played in a hockey team with 4(!), you can imagine the confusion whenever the coach started shouting something... And when I studied in the beginning of the 90's, there was another Marco in my flat's corridor, we simply called each other "A" and "B", as these were the first letters of our surnames )

Well, back to my contribution, as said before, I have no problems with Ilford Warmtone RC / Ilford (Harman) Warmtone developer combination. It both developed good, and had good contrast, deep blacks and no color cast instead of a slight warming up, so none of the issues Marco Buonocore was referring too.

I haven't yet tried Ilford Warmtone FB with the same warmtone developer, but according to John, this will probably be OK too.

It's just the combination of Kentmere VC Select and the warmtone developer that has given me some headaches... would still love to now why the technical reasons as to why it develops so badly in this developer compared to Ilford Warmtone RC. Ian already hinted at some possible cause / issue, but if someone else has input it's welcome...

 

[Jack Lusted]

I've had issues with Kentmere Fineprint with Fotospeet WT10 developer. Paper took ages to develop and the blacks were awful. This seemed odd as usually Kentmere papers give very good blacks. Dev was fine too as it was working well with Ilford MGWT. However I was using the developer at 1:20 dilution for extra warm tone, not at 1:10. Once I tried that (after wasting 10 sheets or so of paper) everything was fine.

It would seem that Kentmere likes its developer to be pretty strong for good results.

Jack

 

[pentaxuser]

Given that Ilford now own Kentmere and would want its new paper to behave with its developers, I wonder if it has researched this problem to see what can be done. I would if I were Ilford. Maybe there is nothing to be done if Ilford want to keep the other properties of Kentmere which make it a "seller" but if so, Ilford might come up with a recommendation on paper and developer combos.

pentaxuser

 

[j4425]

I found Ilford Warmtone FB in Dektol 1:2 to be a repulsive combination. Olive green tones on a cream base. Yikes.

Great.. I just bought a box full of this paper to try in dektol. I love the results of warmtone RC in dektol 1:3. Hmmmm...

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Great.. I just bought a box full of this paper to try in dektol. I love the results of warmtone RC in dektol 1:3. Hmmmm...

Don't let my experiences stop you from trying the paper. I've never been a fan of it, but have seen some beautiful work on the Ilford Warmtone. Bob Carnie's lith prints jump to mind, which I've seen in shows in Toronto over the years.

I'm sure there are developer combinations that work very well indeed. Try less dilute dektol, or perhaps a warm tone developer if the 1:3 looks ugly.

Good luck!

 

[Marco B]

I've had issues with Kentmere Fineprint with Fotospeet WT10 developer. Paper took ages to develop and the blacks were awful.

Good to hear someone else had similar issues with Kentmere paper and warmtone developers. Just for the Kentmere fans: as I said before, I had no issues with the Kentmere VC Select and a "normal" developer, just with the warmtone. It seems the general combination of warmtone developer and Kentmere may not be a good one, as Jack states the fiber based "Fineprint" paper, also doesn't work well...

However I was using the developer at 1:20 dilution for extra warm tone, not at 1:10. Once I tried that (after wasting 10 sheets or so of paper) everything was fine.

Dilution was not an issue in my case, I used it at the recommended 1:9 dilution, and it still didn't work.

Given that Ilford now own Kentmere and would want its new paper to behave with its developers, I wonder if it has researched this problem to see what can be done. I would if I were Ilford. Maybe there is nothing to be done if Ilford want to keep the other properties of Kentmere which make it a "seller" but if so, Ilford might come up with a recommendation on paper and developer combos.

I don't think it would be a good idea of Ilford to change the Kentmere paper. As you suggest, some kind of well documented recommendation for the paper and paper developers would be better idea.