Bad News for C41ers

guyjr said:

I contacted their Pro department via e-mail and actually got back a couple of documents from them that explain very clearly how to do one-shot processing with the 10L chemicals. It lists the exact amounts of replenisher and starter (for those chems that have a starter) to make 1L of working solution. I don't know if the docs are on their web site... if not, I can make them available, just let me know.

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Please do!!

This would save a lot of us, me especially, a lot of grief.

Michael

Why don't you buy Rollei DIGIBASE C41 chemistry? It's available worldwide, in a wide variety of conditionning. Moreover you can only buy what you need (developer, bleach of fix), and quality is very high. It's a must here in France.

Anybody know the composition of starter for developer? I'm wondering if a home brew starter would work.

Chuck Mintz said:

Life would be simpler if Kodak would just come out and say what there plans are...

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I don't think they have a grand plan. I think they are just picking off products that aren't making money for them.

IMHO, if they were really smart, and cared about their customers, they would sell off the 'brands' that they can't/don't want to support anymore to some company that can/will. Procter and Gamble is an excellent model for this -- some of their brands that have been sold include Folgers, Jif, Crisco and Duncan Hines. The products are still out there, they are just sold by someone other than P&G. (And when P&G sells a brand like this, they sell EVERYTHING, including the manufacturing facility(ies) and all of the people and IP go with it. This would admitedly be a little harder for Kodak as their manufacturing is all centrally located, whereas P&G's has been spread out all over the world for years.)

Ed

The Flexicolor line is separate Bleach and Fix. The fix is incredibly cheap, and works for B&W film and paper also.

Price-wise the Kodak stuff is WAY cheaper than the Rollei, and a proven known quantity (unlike the Rollei, IMNSHO), with much better technical documentation. The biggest issue is finding places that will ship the bleach. Fortunately the bleach can be regenerated multiple times, so it's quite long-lasting.

I get about 48 rolls of 120 out of 5L of kodak chemistry, using it 1-shot in a Phototherm SSK-4. I recycle the bleach but dump the other chemicals (1-shot).

FWIW
-Ed

EdSawyer said:

The Flexicolor line is separate Bleach and Fix. The fix is incredibly cheap, and works for B&W film and paper also.

Price-wise the Kodak stuff is WAY cheaper than the Rollei, and a proven known quantity (unlike the Rollei, IMNSHO), with much better technical documentation. The biggest issue is finding places that will ship the bleach. Fortunately the bleach can be regenerated multiple times, so it's quite long-lasting.

I get about 48 rolls of 120 out of 5L of kodak chemistry, using it 1-shot in a Phototherm SSK-4. I recycle the bleach but dump the other chemicals (1-shot).

FWIW
-Ed

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This is exactly what I want to do, right down to using my Phototherm.

I also have a Phototherm, but I haven't tried running C41 yet.

EdSawyer said:

I get about 48 rolls of 120 out of 5L of kodak chemistry, using it 1-shot in a Phototherm SSK-4. I recycle the bleach but dump the other chemicals (1-shot).

FWIW
-Ed

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So Ed, would you share your work flow with us?

Aurelien said:

Why don't you buy Rollei DIGIBASE C41 chemistry? It's available worldwide, in a wide variety of conditionning. Moreover you can only buy what you need (developer, bleach of fix), and quality is very high. It's a must here in France.

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Because it is much more expensive than the Kodak stuff. With my Kodak one gallon kits that I stockpiled, I do 64 rolls for $65, and that is when I throw the developer out after half its capacity. If I reused each batch of developer to full capacity like the Rollei kit requires to reach its stated number of rolls, instead of just reusing it once, it would be 120 rolls. Buying the current Flexicolor large quantities makes it much cheaper than the old one gallon kit was. I was excited the Rollei kit came to be, but now that it is here and we know the price, I don't see how it makes sense for anyone. One liter of chemistry for $34 is simply ridiculous when the Kodak one gallon (3.785 liter) kit was only $50, and the current large-quantity separate chems are cheaper still.

Here are links to the two documents I received from Kodak regarding splitting E6 chemicals -

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2221088/Splitting Kodak E6.doc
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2221088/Splitting Kodak E6AR.doc

It seems pretty straightforward to use this information to mix up 1L of working strength solution for each of the steps in the six bath workflow.

guyjr said:

Here are links to the two documents I received from Kodak regarding splitting E6 chemicals -

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2221088/Splitting Kodak E6.doc
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2221088/Splitting Kodak E6AR.doc

It seems pretty straightforward to use this information to mix up 1L of working strength solution for each of the steps in the six bath workflow.

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I converted the two docs to PDFs and brazenly stole this chemical's catalog numbers list from Ian Mazursky on the LF Format group.

For reference, here are the Kodak E6 chemicals and Catalog numbers.

E6 Starters
KODAK PROFESSIONAL First Developer Starter, Process E-6 To make 26 gal Cat# 1671577
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Color Developer Starter II, Process E-6 To make 25 gal Cat# 1858158
KODAK Bleach Starter, Process E-6 To make 25 gal Cat# 1779792

E6 AR 5 Gallon Cubes
KODAK PROFESSIONAL First Developer Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube To make 25 gal Cat# 8008401
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Reversal Bath and Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube To make 100 Cat# 1583566
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Color Developer Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube Part A To make 25 gal Cat# 8402224
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Color Developer Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube Part B To make 25 gal Cat# 1007509
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Pre-Bleach and Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube To make 50 gal Cat# 1038660
KODAK Bleach Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube To make 5 gal Cat# 1965623
KODAK Fixer and Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube To make 50 gal Cat# 1213677
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Final Rinse and Replenisher, Process E-6AR 5 Gallon Cube To make 500 gal Cat# 1152156

E6 10 Liter
KODAK PROFESSIONAL First Developer Replenisher, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 8313611
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Reversal Bath and Replenisher, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 1123611
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Color Developer Replenisher, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 1827872
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Pre-bleach and Replenisher Additive, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 1286228
KODAK Bleach Replenisher, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 8192395
KODAK Fixer and Replenisher, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 1545466
KODAK PROFESSIONAL Final Rinse and Replenisher, Process E-6 / To make 10 L Cat# 8140279

EDIT: I originally posted the following, but now see that Michael beat me to it!

Michael (or a moderator):

It seems to me that this post and the hard work behind it would be a great entry in the "How To" Forum - with a title referring to E6 and Kodak 10 liters.

MattKing said:

EDIT: I originally posted the following, but now see that Michael beat me to it!

Michael (or a moderator):

It seems to me that this post and the hard work behind it would be a great entry in the "How To" Forum - with a title referring to E6 and Kodak 10 liters.

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Good idea. Not sure I know how to post articles. Can anyone just post them?

I did start a new thread with the E6 title, since it seemed to me that most people wouldn't look in a thread about C41 for E6 info.

And boy would I like it if we could come up with the same list of info for C41. @guyjr, who did you get the original instructions from at Kodak? Can you ask them about C41?

All I have done is stolen the work of others and put it together.

I actually just used an online form on one of the Kodak Professional web pages to send the initial "complaint" about the loss of the E-6 kit. Someone replied a few days later from the address "kprotraditional@kodak.com", and I replied back asking about how to use the 10L chems in the same fashion as the 5L kit.

I'm all for adding this info to a knowledge base here btw, so please feel free to use the docs in any way that will help us all keep E-6 alive. I'll send another message back to Kodak to see if they have a similar set of instructions for C-41.

Well, you did great as far as I can tell. Better than anyone else has managed so far.

You can still get the chemicals here in the UK:

Dead Link Removed

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-kit-4x5l-295-p.asp

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-blix-kit-4x5l-296-p.asp

Here's what I got from Pakor: (http://www.pakor.com/Category/C41_Chemistry.cfm)

# 444-0296 - KODAK FLEXICOLOR C41 FIXER AND REPLENISHER, 5 GALLONS, 4 PER CASE, KODAK#1693837 ($6.66)
# 444-0364 - KODAK FLEXICOLOR C41 DEVELOPER REPLENISHER, 5 GALLONS, 1 PER CASE, KODAK#1919042 ($23.10)
# 444-0375 - KODAK FLEXICOLOR C41 DEVELOPER STARTER, MAKES 17.75 GALLONS, 1 PER BOX, KODAK#1953009 ($17)
# 444-0401 - KODAK FLEXICOLOR C41 BLEACH, 5 GALLONS, 1 PER BOX, KODAK#1987924 ($77.21)

I already had final rinse (ebay is a good source for small bottles of that) but one could also get this, it would be enough to last forever...

# 444-1044 - KODAK FLEXICOLOR C41 FINAL RINSE AND REPLENISHER, 75 GALLONS, 2 PER CASE, KODAK#8486268 ($34)

Based on the above, I mix it up in 5L batches, basically. For the 5-gallon items (Bleach, Dev), it essentially means making a quarter of it at a time. I refill the developer concentrates with inert gas to prevent oxidation, I don't bother with the bleach and fix concentrates.

Once mixing the dev replenisher, I add the starter + water so it ends up being a bit over 5L total. That amount does 48 rolls of 120 for me (or 48 rolls of 35mm) in the phototherm SSK-4.

I configured the SSK to "save" the bleach, but dump the rest, so the bleach gets recycled but the rest is used one-shot. I do a pre-wet, and I think the bleach and fix times I bumped up to about 6 minutes, also increased the wash times a minute or two each just to be safe.

I found Bleach regenerator (Kodak) from Calumet, on ebay, for under $5/bottle. One bottle regenerates 5 gallons of bleach. (I can find the part # if need be). I've regenerated my first batch of bleach once so far, and run another 48 rolls through it all of which seem fine. I'll give it at least one more regeneration and see how that goes on the next 48 rolls. (that will be a total of 3 uses of the bleach when I do that).

When loading 120 into the SSK-4, I double up and do 2 rolls of 120 per reel. I tape the end of the first roll to the beginning of the 2nd roll using the original tape from the first roll where it attaches to the film spool. Then I wind on the 2nd roll, so both rolls of 120 are on a single reel. Doing that x 2 reels = 4 rolls of 120 per SSK-4 run.

The SSK is a great machine, and makes c-41 super easy. It's just a matter of loading it, making sure the chemistry is set up and ready to go, then turning it on and doing something else for 20-30 minutes, then coming back when it's done.

I don't have running water or a drain in my darkroom so I use a 5 gallon carboy of fresh water for the water supply, and drain into a 5 gallon bucket for waste chemistry. I can do about 3 runs of the SSK before the 5 gallon bucket fills up and needs emptying. (likewise with
the watersupply container).

hope that helps
-Ed

I can't seem to get the tape trick to work for me with 120 on Paterson Super System 4 Reels. I can't get the tape join to go so I just do them singly. Since I'm reusing the 1L Tetenal Press Kit anyways it doesn't matter and once I'm over the suggested capacity I just like doing a single roll at a time anyways, that way when the chems go bad I only have one poor roll, not 2-4. When it is fresh I will do 2-3 rolls at a time with the whole 1L.

Also strangely I find the blix oxidizes more than the developer, very strange. The blix bottle sucks in as if using up air but the dev doesn't, odd indeed. With B&W it is the dev that does this, never the fixer or stop bath.

How long do you have to use up the 5L solutions? Compared to $20 for 1L the above price lists look cheaper. I'm getting more rolls than advertised so it is under $2/roll for me, approaching $1/roll but it sure looks even cheaper above unless I'm not adding it up right.

hpulley said:

I can't seem to get the tape trick to work for me with 120 on Paterson Super System 4 Reels. I can't get the tape join to go so I just do them singly.

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If you're doing OK singly then do what works for you.

But what I've found about getting two 120 strips on a single Paterson reel is that the factory tape on the film may or may not be OK to use.

Usually Ilford's tape is great, while the Shanghai tape is totally unusable. But what I do is tear a small piece of the blue masking tape and keep it by my side while loading. Then, when I'm ready to join the two strips I fold over the factory tape back onto the film or remove and discard it on the floor, then use my self provided piece of tape to join the strips.

Michael

michaelbsc said:

If you're doing OK singly then do what works for you.

But what I've found about getting two 120 strips on a single Paterson reel is that the factory tape on the film may or may not be OK to use.

Usually Ilford's tape is great, while the Shanghai tape is totally unusable. But what I do is tear a small piece of the blue masking tape and keep it by my side while loading. Then, when I'm ready to join the two strips I fold over the factory tape back onto the film or remove and discard it on the floor, then use my self provided piece of tape to join the strips.

Michael

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Thanks, I might try that. The problem seems to be that the join is too thick so it just won't feed properly into the Paterson reels' grooves. Mine rarely feed completely smoothly anyways, I usually have some tapping to do and the tape just makes it worse.

That said, I've never tried with Ilford, only Kodak Portra so perhaps I'll try it with Ilford some time if I shoot two rolls of the same film at the same N+-. Thanks.

more info

Usually I save up 48+ rolls and process them all in a week or two. But I have had the 5L mixed for over 8 weeks before, and it still worked fine. I don't think I'd want to go much longer than that, probably. The color of the Developer is a good indicator on whether it's still ok or not. The darker it is the more oxidized it is, I found. When it gets to black-coffee color (or a bit before that), that's when you should start to worry. The only one that seems sensitive to age/air is the Dev. I use bleach and fix separately so can't offer info on why that seems to consume oxygen.

Taping and loading 2 x 120 onto a patterson reel does take some practice. I have been using the factory tape on Ektar 100 rolls and that seems to work fine. On older film (Ektar 25 for example) I use blue painters tape as a safety measure since the original tape is 20+/- years old or so.

If you join the ends (butt-joint) that seems to work the smoothest and loads the easiest for me. Even still, sometimes if it's not 100% square butt joint, it will occasionally bind a bit near the end but going slow and carefully I have always been able to fully load it without problems (knock on wood!).

Price-wise I did figure it out one time, and it was well under $1/roll. Part of it depends on how much you re-use bleach, and also if you do something other than 1-shot (on dev/fix/etc.) it would be even cheaper. Using those more than once I bet it could easily be under 40 cents a roll or less.

-Ed

How about this place in Queens, NY? I've only had chemicals shipped to me from them. Call them and see if they're open to personal pick up.
http://www.pfsny.com/M/Kodak/Kodak-Chemistry/Kodak-FlexiColor_.html

Thanks for those comments, especially on the pricing. If I get to shooting more color I may need to look into a 5L or larger kit for larger volume cost savings.

I had saved up 8 rolls before starting into my 1L kit as Tetenal warns that you should use it up in a few days but I've been using it for a couple of weeks now without issues, blix sucking in its gut notwithstanding. I haven't noticed the effects of exhausted blix yet and I'm now beyond the advertised capacity with another roll in the can to process tonight or tomorrow if I can unless I get daring and decide to shoot another roll or two to process at the same time in a big tank with chems that are past their documented prime. I will probably just go ahead and soup it as I'm impatient as always, one of the main reasons why I'm doing it myself aside from the $7-8/roll cost that local labs are charging these days.

hpulley said:

Thanks, I might try that. The problem seems to be that the join is too thick so it just won't feed properly into the Paterson reels' grooves. Mine rarely feed completely smoothly anyways, I usually have some tapping to do and the tape just makes it worse.

That said, I've never tried with Ilford, only Kodak Portra so perhaps I'll try it with Ilford some time if I shoot two rolls of the same film at the same N+-. Thanks.

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Don't overlap the tape over the long edges. Just tape the head and tail of the two reels together with a piece that's a little too short to go from edge to edge. Then you have to be careful feeding the head of the second roll into the slot with the balls, exactly as if you were starting a new roll, which you are.

you guys might want to talk with your local pro-lab and see if they could sell you mixed(by them) chems from their lines. A friend of mine did this for a while in San Francisco, only with E-6 chemistry. He liked doing it himself, and they were happy to supply him with what he needed. The chems are the same, but vary in concentrations between different part #'s. Developer still develops, but buying multiple parts(starter+replenisher for developer, etc...) is how the larger labs do it, since its more economical in the long-run, and they have the througput.

most people on here I'd venture to guess process >1-2 rolls/week of c-41 or E-6 themselves. most probably send out. And since everyone and their grandma who is "someone", and "with the times" has moved to digital capture, the market for home c-41/e-6 kits is pretty much nil.

this is where Fuji, IMO, could really shine. They have their c-41 and E-6 "at home" kits in the EU, why not here in the USA? Simple enough to pay someone $20/hr to mix 1000L of chems at a time and put into bottles for DIY kits...just sayin...

most larger labs have cubitainers of replenishers for their D+D lines, but some places mix batches from scratch still.

might be another option, especially if you're in NY or LA, or any other larger metropolis.

-Dan