bad focus question

tballphoto · Dec 24, 2021

When focusing, do i REALLY turn the enlarging lens to the lowest aperture, and simply raise and lower the lens stage until the image is focused?

If i did that i would be screwed as my 23c II had that dual dichro head on it, and i didnt know unti li had it home that the thing is "stuck" at either full blurry image about 14x12 in size, or 5x7 when i reduce the aperture size by 2-4 stops and it becomes a clear image i can see.

do i simply bang my head on the wall or should i get one of those darkroom automation meters and use the blurry image to get my data for enlarger settings?

I dont like the frustration i am getting from the BS with settings, or the wasting of paper, or the hassle of developing "dead prints".

MattKing · Dec 25, 2021

sturmovik said:
If i did that i would be screwed as my 23c II had that dual dichro head on it, and i didnt know unti li had it home that the thing is "stuck" at either full blurry image about 14x12 in size, or 5x7 when i reduce the aperture size by 2-4 stops and it becomes a clear image i can see.

Your enlarger should have a focusing control that slowly moves the lens stage up and down. Generally speaking, you move the entire assembly into a position where the size of the image is approximately correct, then adjust he focus control until it is in focus. Sometimes you will need to do that in smaller steps, because changing the focus also makes a smaller change in image size.
Always focus with the lens wide open (the f/stop set to the smallest number). Then when the image is the correct size on the easel and in focus, stop the lens down to the f/stop you wish to print at.
With some very old lenses you may have to check the focus at the stopped down f/stop.

tballphoto · Dec 25, 2021

the 23c11 in front of me has 3 dials that turn

1. it lifts the body up and down on the rail frame

2. it changes the distance between the negative stage and the condensers

3. it changes the distance between the lens stage and the negative stage

what i have done is lift the body up on the rails as far as possible. then have set the negative stage to the 35mm position based on the handy scale on the side of the enlarger. And have used the last dial to change the distance between lens and negative to control how things look on the spot where i put the printing paper.

is that the correct way or should i make a difference in what i am doing, as so far i dont get quality image until i go to a higher aperture number, and the image size is essentially stuck at 5x7 printing paper

MattKing · Dec 25, 2021

What lens do you have installed?
Assuming that it is a 50mm lens - standard for 35mm film - I would suggest that you start with the enlarger head until it is about half way up the rails. Then adjust the focus - with the lens wide open - until the image is focused. You should have an image that is around 8" x 12" in size (give or take). Use that as your starting point and start moving the head down and up in relatively small steps, re-focusing each time. It should become fairly obvious how high the enlarger head needs to be to give you the size of image you want.
If the lens is not 50mm, it is much more difficult to deal with.
If this doesn't work, there may be something damaged.

tballphoto · Dec 25, 2021

its a beseler f3.6 lens that came standard in the 1980s. and at the current height the image when fully open is larger then 8x10

the height scale marker is at the 4 7/8" height spot, and i cannot lift it higher, but with the lens closed down to f8 or f/11 the image size drops to a 5x7.

i gotta have a day away from the enlarger tomorrow, and have plenty of foccee

MattKing · Dec 25, 2021

Do you have the manual?
http://www.jollinger.com/photo/cam-coll/manuals/enlargers/beseler/Beseler_23C_II.pdf

winger · Dec 25, 2021

If the manual Matt posted isn't enough, I have a 23CIII and I could probably make a short video of using it. Knowing the focal length of the enlarging lens would be good, but I'll guess it's around 50mm if it came with it. Let us know if you need a video.

tballphoto · Dec 25, 2021

winger said:
If the manual Matt posted isn't enough, I have a 23CIII and I could probably make a short video of using it. Knowing the focal length of the enlarging lens would be good, but I'll guess it's around 50mm if it came with it. Let us know if you need a video.

I appreciate the offer, and i need to take a few days away from my enlarger to clear my head. I have a mild learning issue that only gets me with math, and now this enlarger. 5 months ago i managed to do a few test prints that turned out ok, but this time i tried to do prints at the last minute for christmas, and discovered that everyone was comming over on the 24th and not the 25th or 265h as usual, and that MAY have lead to a great deal of my troubles.

But the images were all made with a beseler 50mm lens, low cost entry one that they used to sell in the 80s or 90s. wide open its 3.5 or 3.6. came with the enlarger.

winger · Dec 25, 2021

sturmovik said:
I appreciate the offer, and i need to take a few days away from my enlarger to clear my head. I have a mild learning issue that only gets me with math, and now this enlarger. 5 months ago i managed to do a few test prints that turned out ok, but this time i tried to do prints at the last minute for christmas, and discovered that everyone was comming over on the 24th and not the 25th or 265h as usual, and that MAY have lead to a great deal of my troubles.

But the images were all made with a beseler 50mm lens, low cost entry one that they used to sell in the 80s or 90s. wide open its 3.5 or 3.6. came with the enlarger.

Last minute changes are rarely helpful with something you haven't yet done a thousand times. Believe me, if math was necessary to print, I'd be one of the last to try it. Take some time and try it again. If I hear this week that you need a video, I have my youngun around on break (he's 11, but can help me film this). I've been printing since the 1980s and have had my own darkroom since 2003.

With a 50mm lens, there shouldn't be an issue making 5x7 through 11x14 prints with a 23C.

reddesert · Dec 25, 2021

sturmovik said:
the 23c11 in front of me has 3 dials that turn

1. it lifts the body up and down on the rail frame

This adjusts the print size.

2. it changes the distance between the negative stage and the condensers

This adjusts the illumination, meaning it sets the head at the right distance to illuminate your negative evenly for the film size and enlarging lens focal length you are using. Figure out from the manual or the scale on the side, the correct setting for a 50mm lens and 35mm film and leave it there.

3. it changes the distance between the lens stage and the negative stage

Finally, this is the actual focus control.

what i have done is lift the body up on the rails as far as possible. then have set the negative stage to the 35mm position based on the handy scale on the side of the enlarger. And have used the last dial to change the distance between lens and negative to control how things look on the spot where i put the printing paper.

is that the correct way or should i make a difference in what i am doing, as so far i dont get quality image until i go to a higher aperture number, and the image size is essentially stuck at 5x7 printing paper

This is one of the problems, IMO you have lifted up the enlarger head super far as if you were going to make a 16x20" print, but you haven't hit the correct focus point, and I don't know if your negative carrier is set up correctly based on the other thread. If the negative isn't positioned properly that may contribute to the lack of image quality and the difficulty of focusing. Also, because you have the head up all the way, the image is dimmer and you can't see what you are doing.

Lower the enlarger head to about halfway on the rails, make sure the film is firmly held in the negative carrier, the carrier is seated in the round recess that holds the round rib on the carrier, open the lens up to maximum aperture (f/3.5) and try focusing. Only adjust the focus knob, don't move the others.

tballphoto · Dec 26, 2021

has anyone else here dealt with the dual dichro s head? with it installed on my 23c ii i CANNOT raise the body of the enlarger, so that the little dandy arrow painted on the side of it that points to the measure ment scale can go higher then 4 7/8 on a scale that maxes out as 22 inches.

its like in Crocodile Dundee, when his journalist girl says "mick, give him your wallet, he has a knife..." and the guy is waving about a little kid size pocket knife and the Dundee pulls that big honking bowie out? The dual dichro IS that big honking knife

MattKing · Dec 26, 2021

sturmovik said:
has anyone else here dealt with the dual dichro s head? with it installed on my 23c ii i CANNOT raise the body of the enlarger, so that the little dandy arrow painted on the side of it that points to the measure ment scale can go higher then 4 7/8 on a scale that maxes out as 22 inches.

Sounds like the head isn't installed correctly, or the enlarger is broken.
Assuming of course that the Elevation lock (#15) isn't engaged.

AgX · Dec 26, 2021

sturmovik said:
the 23c11 in front of me has 3 dials that turn

1. it lifts the body up and down on the rail frame

2. it changes the distance between the negative stage and the condensers

3. it changes the distance between the lens stage and the negative stage

# 1 to control scale of enlargement
# 2 to control the illumination , the idea though is to change the distance condensor to the lens
# 3 to focus

The sequence in general should be 1, 3 , 2
If #2 actually moves the lens stage, the sequence then rather would be 1 ,3, 2 , 3

tballphoto · Dec 26, 2021

MattKing said:
Sounds like the head isn't installed correctly, or the enlarger is broken.
Assuming of course that the Elevation lock (#15) isn't engaged.

its installed correctly, elevation lock has been OFF...

its just a humongous device.

Beseler 23C Enlarger (oresteen.com) what i have is the 23c series II mid 1960s blue grey basic machine
and the dual dichro s head he shows.

Beseler Dual Dichro S 23C II Dark Room 35mm Photo Enlarger - USED | eBay an XL frame with a dual dichro s installed,

except on MY version, i cannot raise the enlarger higher then the 4 7/8 marking on the height scale because the top edge of the dual dichro s head HIT the inside edge of the blue corner brackets.

I COULD raise it HIGHER only if i flip the unit to horizontal projection but i do not have a good spot for that.

OR i ould have to cut the rails off at the location of the bottom screw in the corner brackets

OR i could somehow figure out a way to tip the entire enlarger body forward by 1/2 inch, but then i would have the issue of trying to match the angle for the baseboard

wiltw · Dec 26, 2021

sturmovik said:
Beseler Dual Dichro S 23C II Dark Room 35mm Photo Enlarger - USED | eBay an XL frame with a dual dichro s installed,

except on MY version, i cannot raise the enlarger higher then the 4 7/8 marking on the height scale because the top edge of the dual dichro s head HIT the inside edge of the blue corner brackets.

I COULD raise it HIGHER only if i flip the unit to horizontal projection but i do not have a good spot for that.

OR i ould have to cut the rails off at the location of the bottom screw in the corner brackets

OR i could somehow figure out a way to tip the entire enlarger body forward by 1/2 inch, but then i would have the issue of trying to match the angle for the baseboard

The issue is that the top of the Dual Dichro head is striking the horizontal top crossmember of the frame assembly. limiting the vertical rise of the central carriage! That ought not be occurring, but since I am not an owner of that combination, I cannot comment on what is not properly assembled in your situation. The XL frame is ordinarily supposed to rise high enough to permit 19X enlargement with 50mm lens (about 18" x 27" print)

MattKing · Dec 26, 2021

Play close attention to the side view in that eBay listing.
This one (cropped).

How does the side view of yours compare?

wiltw · Dec 26, 2021

MattKing said:
Play close attention to the side view in that eBay listing.
This one (cropped).
View attachment 294047
How does the side view of yours compare?

It might be a good idea for OP to take a photo of the side view of his enlarger with a digital camera so he can post the photo for us to look at, to comment on what needs to be remedied!

tballphoto · Dec 26, 2021

how much did they change when they switch to the black painted models? ill get the photo up, wont be instant but the cropped photo enlarger, its as if the hinge bracket sticks out twice as far.

reddesert · Dec 26, 2021

Are the head, the negative carrier, and the lens board all parallel to the baseboard? On the Beseler 23C it's possible to tilt the entire head assembly back 90 degrees, to point at the wall to make very large enlargements. (Not sure if this is true for all versions, but probably.) If yours is tilted back a little, or the head isn't seated properly on the bellows unit, maybe that's why it's hitting the cross brace.

Obviously, my earlier suggestion that the head was up too far was not right, because it's not up as far as it should be able to go.

Hilo · Dec 26, 2021

Because Matt made a comment in your "negative carrier" thread I searched and found this here.

I sympathize with you breaking your head over all this. Struggling with math should not have anything to do with it. I feel you're dealing with another problem, and hopefully a very simple one. Take Winger's offer to do a video and do what Wiltw suggests: post a picture of the side of the enlarger.

If that does not bring the solution, I would call a shop that still has analog people working there. Yours is a very known enlarger and they'll know . . .

tballphoto · Dec 26, 2021

file is to large to post on server...

one photo actually DOES hint that the enlarger is tipped backwards slightly,,,, but that means i have to dig a square out of the garage tomorrow and rob a piece of glass from a picture and do the setup testing.. Sometimes i dont envy myself.

Took the dichro head off, took the moment to clean inside and put it back together. Everything is good as the bottom hole in the dichro head is designed to rest directly upon the ledge just above the beseler labelled trap door for the heat glass to fit into.

But somehow the enlarger can go to 5.5" on the height scale until its directly touching the corner brackets at the top rail. Rather interesting.

winger · Dec 26, 2021

sturmovik said:
But somehow the enlarger can go to 5.5" on the height scale until its directly touching the corner brackets at the top rail. Rather interesting.

The way the back support is designed, that shouldn't happen unless the enlarger is tipped back too much. As the plate holding the head moves up on the rails, it's also staying farther out towards the user because of the slant.

sturmovik said:
how much did they change when they switch to the black painted models? ill get the photo up, wont be instant but the cropped photo enlarger, its as if the hinge bracket sticks out twice as far.

I don't think they changed much in a functional sense. Mine has the extra large support so I could print 16x20 (I think) since it goes higher. I've heard the 23CIII is easier to align, but I don't know what changed as far as that.
I've used 23CIIs and IIIs and they operated the same as far as I could tell.

tballphoto · Dec 26, 2021

i will be checking the alignment tomorrow, but i when i took the dichro head off, i could get the enlarger body all of the way to the end of the scale.

btaylor · Dec 27, 2021

At the bottom of the carriage assembly there is an adjustment screw installed in a bracket. Either the adjustment is way off or the bracket could be bent- or both. In any case it would not be difficult to remedy. It is annoying that photos from phones have to be resized to post on this site, but I think it would be easier for you to resize a photo (plenty of free programs and apps available) and post a pic from a similar vantage point to Matt’s posting to get to a solution. You’ve already spent days on something a photo would likely solve in minutes.

tballphoto · Dec 27, 2021

m

btaylor said:
At the bottom of the carriage assembly there is an adjustment screw installed in a bracket. Either the adjustment is way off or the bracket could be bent- or both. In any case it would not be difficult to remedy. It is annoying that photos from phones have to be resized to post on this site, but I think it would be easier for you to resize a photo (plenty of free programs and apps available) and post a pic from a similar vantage point to Matt’s posting to get to a solution. You’ve already spent days on something a photo would likely solve in minutes.[/QUO

my cellphone doesnt connect with my computer, but my dslr takes a decent photo, but the jpegs are roughly 4 mb in size. email would work

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