BACKING FOR 4 COLOR GUM PRINTING

michael9793 · Nov 7, 2011

I just started this and have tried to follow quite a few different techniques and work with what seen logical to me. On youtube there is a gum printer that uses aluminum lith plates and glues the paper to that after sizing and then does a post sizing using diluted primer paint 1:8. He glues the print down on the Aluminum with a PVCa glue ( like Elmer's wood glue ). Well, my first print is very attached to it. the second paper I glued, I diluted the glue because the other way it did not spread very well. it is barely sticking at all and I haven't placed any solutions on it yet.
My question is What do most of you do when you are registering your negs and paper, and are you using a backing like I'm using. Or am i just going to far.

Bob Carnie · Nov 7, 2011

we are using fotofusion heat activated, as well we are using ph neutral face cold mount adhesive.

Bob Carnie · Nov 7, 2011

Actually I am wrong art safe 200 from Drytac heat activated not photofusion.

R Shaffer · Nov 7, 2011

I think your going to far unless your trying to print large. I print 11x14 and register on a light table. This can be a difficult with a black layer, so I keep some registration marks beyond the coating area or cover them with blue tape when coating. I find preshrinking my paper essential, but some printers use papers that work for them without preshrinking. I do miss the target from time to time on reregistration.

michael9793 · Nov 7, 2011

Maybe I did not get it across correctly, Or I'm just stupid ( I'm sure of the 2nd ). Then I do my pin registration I mount my paper on to a sheet Of lithographic plate material. This one happens to be Aluminum. I'm using Elmer's wood glue to hold it onto the AL. When I register my prints I use pins and registration tabs and place them on the film. No punching necessary and I put them on the AL to. I then tape down the pins in registration to the tabs onto a table. What I'm trying to get at is after I have finished my 4 color printing and the print is dried the glue doesn't release and the print is permanently on the Al. and other means of doing this or should I just put the registration tabs on the paper and forget the AL. sheet. I'm working up to 16x20 prints, similar to the size of my platinum prints.

Bob Carnie · Nov 7, 2011

Micheal are you using four films for cmy and k ?

We punch the aluminum and punch the film so the register always lines up.

michael9793 said:
Maybe I did not get it across correctly, Or I'm just stupid ( I'm sure of the 2nd ). Then I do my pin registration I mount my paper on to a sheet Of lithographic plate material. This one happens to be Aluminum. I'm using Elmer's wood glue to hold it onto the AL. When I register my prints I use pins and registration tabs and place them on the film. No punching necessary and I put them on the AL to. I then tape down the pins in registration to the tabs onto a table. What I'm trying to get at is after I have finished my 4 color printing and the print is dried the glue doesn't release and the print is permanently on the Al. and other means of doing this or should I just put the registration tabs on the paper and forget the AL. sheet. I'm working up to 16x20 prints, similar to the size of my platinum prints.

donbga · Nov 8, 2011

michael9793 said:
Maybe I did not get it across correctly, Or I'm just stupid ( I'm sure of the 2nd ). Then I do my pin registration I mount my paper on to a sheet Of lithographic plate material. This one happens to be Aluminum. I'm using Elmer's wood glue to hold it onto the AL. When I register my prints I use pins and registration tabs and place them on the film. No punching necessary and I put them on the AL to. I then tape down the pins in registration to the tabs onto a table. What I'm trying to get at is after I have finished my 4 color printing and the print is dried the glue doesn't release and the print is permanently on the Al. and other means of doing this or should I just put the registration tabs on the paper and forget the AL. sheet. I'm working up to 16x20 prints, similar to the size of my platinum prints.

What Robert said. If you go larger than 11x14 then you might want to punch register and mount. If you are just learning the process don't worry about it.

michael9793 · Nov 8, 2011

Check this you tube video out and see what I'm talking about and give me some thoughts on it. also your right I will buy a punch when I feel this is going to be one of my printing methods. I mostly do Pt/Pl and silver chloride print now.

Gum printing 1 - YouTube

donbga · Nov 9, 2011

michael9793 said:
Check this you tube video out and see what I'm talking about and give me some thoughts on it. also your right I will buy a punch when I feel this is going to be one of my printing methods. I mostly do Pt/Pl and silver chloride print now.

Gum printing 1 - YouTube

I think most of us have viewed that one. FWIW, the print remains attached to the aluminum.

Bob Carnie · Nov 9, 2011

using the artsafe the mount is reversable, so they say so we are using this material currently for our tests.

gmikol · Nov 10, 2011

Product data says it's not heat-reversible, but rather solvent-reversible (denatured alcohol).

Have you had the opportunity to reverse any mounts, yet? Just wondering how it goes...

--Greg

Bob Carnie · Nov 10, 2011

Not yet but with all our mistakes we will have lots to work with and try. Really not sure how it is to work and need to talk to Luigi at Drytac to see how to do it.

The Irving Penn prints that were in my shop recently were on aluminum and I am not so sure I will even bother taking the prints off, need to find a way to frame them well but all part
of the learning curve.

gmikol said:
Product data says it's not heat-reversible, but rather solvent-reversible (denatured alcohol).

Have you had the opportunity to reverse any mounts, yet? Just wondering how it goes...

--Greg

Bob Carnie · Nov 10, 2011

We are also going to try the face mount adhesive which is ph neutral and very agressive

gmikol · Nov 10, 2011

Thanks for the info, Bob...be sure to let us know how it all works out when you get around to trying it.

--Greg

Green Rhino · Nov 15, 2011

Beva is a heat mounted, heat reversible mounting adhesive that is very easy to work with and also easy to reverse. i dont want my prints mounted to aluminum for framing purposes and Beva fits the bill for this. Fusion 4000 is decent to work with as well, also heat reversible although it is a bit harder to get off.

gmikol · Nov 15, 2011

Green Rhino--

Have you actually reversed any mounts with Beva? Wary as I'd be with alcohol and Drytac, I'd even be less interested in Naptha or Xylene and Beva.

--Greg

Green Rhino · Nov 15, 2011

Yes, I have used it on almost one hundred prints. Over heating makes it less fun to reverse. It is quite simple and elegant to use.

Anthony

gmikol · Nov 15, 2011

What sort of prints are we talking about? Any residual oiliness/translucency...naptha is definitely heavier/slower to evaporate than alcohol.

--Greg

Green Rhino · Nov 16, 2011

Hi Greg,
Its heat reversible so there are no chemicals used with it. I've use it with tri-color gum, silver, platinum, color coupler, archival pigment as well as for mounting drawings. I've only reversed gum and platinum. The other prints where mounted for exhibition purposes not process oriented purposes. Since it is a film, there is no oiliness to it.
Best
Anthony

Bob Carnie · Nov 16, 2011

Anthony who makes Beva? I have tried the fusion 4000 , I am not so keen on the method of reversing the art safe with liquid.
I assume you mount Beva with one temp and take it off with a hotter temp?

Green Rhino · Nov 16, 2011

It is used in the conservation industry, so a good art and artifacts conservation supply place should have it. Very similar on use to the 4000. Slightly lower set temp. i take it off with the same temp that i use to adhere it. You can use a heat mount press or a large heated vacuum press activate it. Using chemicals to reverse a mount seems like a recipe for bad things to happen unless you have a great set up for that process.(ie a fume hood )

I'm not sure if Beva is made by Beva or someone else. Its a niche product and is not made by any of the big mount companies.....

gmikol · Nov 16, 2011

@Anthony: The source I was referencing re: use of solvents to reverse Beva was from Talas Online (large paper / art supplier):
http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/Beva_film_basic_inst.pdf

@Bob: Here's the info I dug up re: Beva

Conservator's Products Company
5 Corey Road
PO Box 601
Flanders, NJ 07836
(973) 927-4855
http://www.conservators-products.com

It doesn't look like they have any instructions on-line.

--Greg

Green Rhino · Nov 16, 2011

They have several products in this line of adhesives and some do reverse with solvents, but the film and the spray film are reversible with heat or solvent. I have never tried it with solvent. I could buy less expensive product if i wanted to use sovlents, well like the drytac or other cold mount solutions. This stuff is awesome, I'm mounting with it right now!

michael9793 · Nov 20, 2011

I don't think using solvents on gum prints is a smart thing. but I like the BEVA idea. I went to the website and also down loaded the instructions. I think I will get some and try it. Thank you all for your interest.

BACKING FOR 4 COLOR GUM PRINTING

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency