Back/Rear standard on Topcon Horseman 970 - Advice Wanted

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

I'm very new to using my Topcon Horseman 970 but I'm beginning to work a few things out with help from this forum, trial and error and reading as much as I can find. There is no manual for this model - I have tried several reputable manual providers.

Manuals for later models only show how to open the back standard, but not what it does and if other adjustments need to be made to the lens settings and focusing, which is my main area of confusion at the moment.

I can't focus on infinity, using the front focusing knob, with the cam and the tabs set for the lens (105mm in my case) once the back is fully extended or just opened. My basic idea is that the film plane has moved away from the lens plane, which is causing this issue.

Does anyone know if the lens needs to reset at different tabs or at another point along the rails, when the back is extended?

Also, any general tips on why I need to open the back and what it can be used for are welcome.

Thanks,

Stephen

Dan Daniel · Sep 10, 2020

I'd assume that you need to use the ground glass for both focusing and framing if you move the back standard from its standard position. Far too many variables for a simple stop on the lens board to accommodate.

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
I'd assume that you need to use the ground glass for both focusing and framing if you move the back standard from its standard position. Far too many variables for a simple stop on the lens board to accommodate.

I am using the ground glass to focus with the back extended. But, the focus is only sharp on objects at very close range, around 1 meter or so when the back is fully extended and slightly more when pushed in. It's never sharp for far distances.

I had a focusing issue when I first got the camera and the image was blurry throughout the range on the glass screen. After advice given here, I realized I had the lens set to the wrong infinity tabs. It's at the right tabs now and focusing is perfect with the back pushed in. But, I am assuming that when the back is extended, the lens needs to be at a different infinity tabs or another point on the rail?

ic-racer · Sep 10, 2020

The infinity stops are for rangefinder use only. Most view cameras dont have them.

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

ic-racer said:
The infinity stops are for rangefinder use only. Most view cameras dont have them.

Thanks for the reply. So, the focusing is out because the back is not parallel to the front and extending the back not effect the focus, if the back is straight?

You seem to have edited your original post about using a laser to correct the angle, I'd be interested in hearing more about it.

Dan Daniel · Sep 10, 2020

Stephen Power said:
I am using the ground glass to focus with the back extended. But, the focus is only sharp on objects at very close range, around 1 meter or so when the back is fully extended and slightly more when pushed in. It's never sharp for far distances.

I had a focusing issue when I first got the camera and the image was blurry throughout the range on the glass screen. After advice given here, I realized I had the lens set to the wrong infinity tabs. It's at the right tabs now and focusing is perfect with the back pushed in. But, I am assuming that when the back is extended, the lens needs to be at a different infinity tabs or another point on the rail?

Once you start playing with the back, extending it, etc., all bets are off on the front rails and on the rangefinder. You now have a 6x9 view camera. The stops, the cam, the rangefinder optics- dead weight. Flip the stops out of the way. Move the lens board to get focus, then fine tune by moving the lens board focus knob.

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
Once you start playing with the back, extending it, etc., all bets are off on the front rails and on the rangefinder. You now have a 6x9 view camera. The stops, the cam, the rangefinder optics- dead weight. Flip the stops out of the way. Move the lens board to get focus, then fine tune by moving the lens board focus knob.

Very helpful indeed. I hadn't thought about uncoupling the Rangefinder. I'll give it a go. Thanks again.

Dennis-B · Sep 10, 2020

With your camera, the back should be completely closed and locked. Extending the back, and then trying to focus just won't work properly. The adjustable back is meant to be used for minimal tilt functions, and for macro extensions. Here's a link to Butkus' site for the Linhof Technika III. The back movements are similar:
https://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/linhof_technika_iii-guide.pdf

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

Dennis-B said:
With your camera, the back should be completely closed and locked. Extending the back, and then trying to focus just won't work properly. The adjustable back is meant to be used for minimal tilt functions, and for macro extensions. Here's a link to Butkus' site for the Linhof Technika III. The back movements are similar:
https://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/linhof_technika_iii-guide.pdf

Thanks Dennis, I am basically trying to get a handle on why I need the back at all, and if there is a way to compensate for the lack of forward tilt on the front standard of the Horseman 970 (only back tilt), to increase foreground sharpness. I'll have a look at the Linhof manual and thanks for the link.

Dan Daniel · Sep 10, 2020

Stephen Power said:
Thanks Dennis, I am basically trying to get a handle on why I need the back at all, and if there is a way to compensate for the lack of forward tilt on the front standard of the Horseman 970 (only back tilt), to increase foreground sharpness. I'll have a look at the Linhof manual and thanks for the link.

Maybe you can remove the actual lens board part from the part that holds it, and then reverse that part, reinstall the lens board mount? I seem to remember a graflex or maybe a Burke & James press camera where you could do that. Or there may be a tab or slot that needs to be either removed or extended to allow for forward motion?

Doing swings and tilts handheld is, well, tricky at best? I know people do that with an SLR- use shift lenses on a 35mm DSLR so you get immediate feedback on mistakes- but using a handheld camera is going to be hard.

You have a 6x9 view camera. Yes, limited front motion makes it more difficult to do traditional view camera moves, but it can be done if you understand the key is the knowing where the film plane is and where the lens is pointing. For example, to do a front tilt you pull the back out at the top only. Tilt tripod head forward and get film plane perpendicular to ground. Probably need to raise lens a bit on front standard.

Dan Fromm · Sep 10, 2020

Stephen, Butkus has a manual for the Horseman 985 at https://butkus.org/chinon/horseman/horseman_985/horseman_985.htm. It is very much like your 970.

If you want view camera functionality, replace your technical camera with a proper view camera. That said, the 970 has a drop bed, just like my Graphics. Within the limits imposed by lens focal length and focused distance, combining dropped bed, front rise and backwards tilt will give forward tilt. The limits are very tight, which is why I assert that Graphics don't have usable forward tilt. But you ought to try the combination to find out what's possible with your camera.

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
Doing swings and tilts handheld is, well, tricky at best? I know people do that with an SLR- use shift lenses on a 35mm DSLR so you get immediate feedback on mistakes- but using a handheld camera is going to be hard.

I have no intention of hand holding it, and I've no idea how the old press photographers handheld their Press cameras. I've been shooting press work since the late 1970's and thankfully I've never had anything bigger than a Pentax 6x7 to carry, and it was usually a much smaller SLR. I've actually just ordered a 2nd tripod, so that I can leave my manfrotto set up for scanning the negs - see photo.

Dan Daniel said:
You have a 6x9 view camera. Yes, limited front motion makes it more difficult to do traditional view camera moves, but it can be done if you understand the key is the knowing where the film plane is and where the lens is pointing. For example, to do a front tilt you pull the back out at the top only. Tilt tripod head forward and get film plane perpendicular to ground. Probably need to raise lens a bit on front standard.

Very useful, thanks again. I'll practice that. I actually saw something similar on a YouTube video by Fred Newman, but I can't get it to work yet. I'll try tilting the camera forward as you suggest.

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
Stephen, Butkus has a manual for the Horseman 985 at https://butkus.org/chinon/horseman/horseman_985/horseman_985.htm. It is very much like your 970.

If you want view camera functionality, replace your technical camera with a proper view camera. That said, the 970 has a drop bed, just like my Graphics. Within the limits imposed by lens focal length and focused distance, combinging dropped bed, front rise and backwards tilt will give forward tilt. The limits are very tight, which is why I assert that Graphics don't have usable forward tilt. But you ought to try the combination to find out what's possible with your camera.

Thanks for the Manual link. I have this already, both as a download (I donated) and as a printed manual from Old Timer Cameras. It seems to be the only version of the Horseman 6x9 models available anywhere. There are some differences though, as the 985 (and the 980) have forward tilt and cross-movements and the 970 only has back tilt, and no cross-movement.

I wasn't sure that I wanted View Camera functionality when I bought it (last week). I just knew that I wanted a medium format camera that took roll film, as I'm set up for processing it at home. I've also owned several medium format film SLR and TLR cameras in the past, and used them professionally. This is more of a slowed-down, hobbyist type situation for me now (as I'm semi-retired from photography), and I wanted something a bit different but challenging.

I'm happy to work with the limitations for now and you're quite right that I just need to see what's possible with practice. For example I'll probably spend a week trying out the drop-bed/front rise/back tilt combo you mention, which I'm genuinely looking forward to doing. I taught photography at a very high level for many years - I'm actually giving a fairly serious Zoom conference talk next week - but it's actually quite nice for me to be on the learning curve.

Ian Grant · Sep 10, 2020

while not the same camera the same principle

You can use tilt and swing or even both at the same time This is my tatty MPP MicroTechnical Mk3 the body has been re-covered since the photo.

Movements are very useful with LF but also MF. Ifound there were some images I wanted to make that just didn't work without at least front (or rear) tilt with my Mamiya 645 cameras. (I'd been using LF for work for some years).

Ian

Stephen Power · Sep 10, 2020

Ian Grant said:
You can use tilt and swing or even both at the same time This is my tatty MPP MicroTechnical Mk3 the body has been re-covered since the photo.

Thanks Ian (my son's name as it happens). Very helpful and I like the tatty look; it has a sense of authenticity about it.

Thanks again for all the help with this guys. The Linhof manual that @Dennis-B linked is is very useful. It's like a mini how-to-use-a-view-camera as well as a guide to the camera controls, which the Horseman manual basically only describes.

I've just sent for Steve Simmons' book USING THE VIEW CAMERA and while it will be a great read, the Linhof manual covers all of the basics related to that camera and the Horseman.

ic-racer · Sep 10, 2020

Stephen Power said:
Thanks for the reply. So, the focusing is out because the back is not parallel to the front and extending the back not effect the focus, if the back is straight?

You seem to have edited your original post about using a laser to correct the angle, I'd be interested in hearing more about it.

When using the rangefinder, the standards need to be perfectly parallel. Realize this Horseman is a medium format camera and a Hasselblad, for example, will be machined to micrometer tolerances at the lens mount and film plane to ensure they are parallel.
One way to set the front detent is to bounce a laser off a filter of a lens, then take the lens off and the laser beam, when bouncing off the ground glass, should point back to the exact same spot. At least on the VH-R, there are adjustments to get the alignment perfect.
I had changed my post, because I'm not sure if the zero detents on the front standard of your camera are adjustable.

ic-racer · Sep 10, 2020

I got my Horseman over ten years ago with all the lenses. The lenses were inexpensive because they don't cover 4x5 and no one wanted them at the time it seems.
They made an electronic release for hand-holding. It allows one to trigger the shutter very smoothly to avoid shake. I think it is pretty important and in fact, the next model (ER-1) had that feature built-in.

Ian Grant · Sep 10, 2020

Stephen Power said:
Thanks Ian (my son's name as it happens). Very helpful and I like the tatty look; it has a sense of authenticity about it.

MkIII MPP's are nearly always quite or very tatty looking the covering material used doesn't age well at all, the next model the MkVI uses a completely different material and like your camera here it's recessed into the body. I also have a MkVII that came from to the East of You over the arbitrary border

Back when I moved to LF for my personal work (1986/7) finding a MF camera alike yours or Icracer's was near impossible the Internet has made it way easier. I made my own 6x7 camera with front tilts a few years ago, I could adapt it to take 6x9 as well. I couldn't justify buying a camera because I have too many LF 5x4, 7x4, 10x8 and upwards (I have I think stopped.

When I bought my first LF camera for work 1977 it was a heavy beast, a De Vere Whole Plate monorail camera with Half plate and 5x4 backs, I never had any issues using movements from the outset but recently realised that was because I was used to correcting verticals using my Durst M601 while printing. Many Durst enlargers allow the head to be rotated left to right, the lens board can swing and there's also shift to keep in the image circle of the enlarger lens. This is far more finicky than your camera or larger It soon becomes second nature.

Ian

RustuErata · Feb 5, 2024

Hi Stephen. I came across this forum while searching for a Horseman 970 user manual and wanted to share the manual I found. If you haven't found it since the date of this forum, I hope it will be useful to you. Good shots. https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/02491/02491.pdf

ic-racer · Feb 6, 2024

Since I first replied on this thread, I have discovered that pulling the back all the way out (like shown in the original post) allows the camera to focus with the 300mm converter in place.

Before I figured this out I had been using the extension back (collapsed all the way) to get it to focus (see picture). Now that I figured that out it is nice not having to carry around the extension back unless I'm doing closeups.

Chuck1 · Feb 6, 2024

Never seen that extension back, is it only for the er1, curios to see photos of how if connects, if you have time

ic-racer · Feb 6, 2024

Chuck1 said:
Never seen that extension back, is it only for the er1, curios to see photos of how if connects, if you have time

Actually that is the FA, which is a 4x5 camera. That extension won't fit the 6x9 cameras, however, the 4 prong extension (shown in the original post) is copied nearly exactly on the folding Horseman 4x5 cameras. The front standard is the same too. Takes the same 80x80mm boards too.
The extension fits in place of the ground glass back. Press the little button and lift the lever on top. That releases the ground glass back (so it can be rotated or removed). This whole assembly fits in place of the ground glass back and has its own ground glass back at the rear. But the connection is a little different on the 6x9 cameras.

Chuck1 · Feb 6, 2024

Another stupid question
The 150 with the 2x teleconverter focuses the same as the 150( no additional bellows needed) an the cam and rangefinder still would be accurate?

ic-racer · Feb 7, 2024

No, the 300mm adapter is not a telephoto or 'teleconverter,' although it is advertised as such. With the 300mm converter, the focal length is a full 300mm. Maximum aperture becomes f11 from f5.6.
Focus only with the ground glass back.

I got the converter 'free' on the back of the 150mm Horseman/Topcor lens. I never used it much because it was hazy. Just a few months ago I finally got around to disassembling it and cleaning the glass. I got all the haze off and it is a fantastic performer. It can be used on many other 150mm lenses, besides the Horseman/Topcor 150mm.

Chuck1 · Feb 7, 2024

I didn't realize it works on other lenses too. Thank for posting

Back/Rear standard on Topcon Horseman 970 - Advice Wanted

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