B&W roll has a pinkish/purple tint

Yesterday I developed a roll of T-Max 100 and it turned quite purple. I have other rolls that has purple tint, but this one is a bit more than others, especially on the edges. My fixer was exhausted and I thought, ok, one last roll, and then I'll replace it. I washed it properly for 10 minutes in a running water and then I did another 2 minutes in photo-flo. Oh, and by the way, I noticed a little bit of purple in the water even after washing it for 10 minutes. Never saw that before.

So was the fixer the reason of the purple tint, and can I do something about it now when the roll is dry and cut?

Moved to the Black and White Film sub-forum - despite the purple tint .
And of course a reference to the long running "sticky" thread on the subject: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pink-magenta-stain-not-blue-which-is-a-different-issue.69462/
Don't worry, it is normal and reasonably easy to deal with.

Thanks Matt for the link, hope I'll find something useful there!

hiroh said:

My fixer was exhausted and I thought, ok, one last roll, and then I'll replace it.

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So now you know that this might work for many film types, but not TMAX

Just refix those negatives with fresh fixer. That solves the dye problem. There are other ways, but I've always found a refix to be the quickest, easiest and most dependable...fix!

Yes, just throw it back in fresh fixer, rewash.

Be aware of a couple of things you need to deal with when using TMax (and Delta) films:

Best practice is to use a rapid fixer, i.e., an ammonium-thiosulfate-based fixer; not a "conventional" sodium-thiosulfate fixer. The former always comes as a liquid stock solution, the latter is powder.

Fixer capacity is greatly reduced when fixing TMax and other tabular-grain films when compared to "conventional" emulsions (e.g., Tri-X or FP-4, etc.). So keep good track of your throughput and discard your fixer in time.

Learn to do a clearing test to determine the state of your fixer. Do the test with fresh fixer and a particular film. Note the time it takes to clear the film completely. The best way to do this is to place a drop of fixer on the film and let it work for 20 seconds or so, then dunk the entire strip in fixer, start the clock, and agitate, keeping close watch on the level of clearing. The spot with the drop will clear first. When the rest of the strip has cleared to match the spot where the drop was, note the time. This is your clearing time in fresh fix for that film.

Then, test clearing time as your fixer approaches exhaustion. When the clearing time approaches double that in fresh fixer, your fixer is exhausted and needs to be discarded.

Also be aware that TMax and other tabular-grain films need more fixing time than conventional films. Fix for at least twice the clearing time (which means you have to do a clearing test before each batch of film) or, since fixing film longer than the minimum is rarely a problem, do as I do and standardize on fixing film for 4x the clearing time in fresh fixer. This builds in the required fixing time for fixer near the end of its capacity and obviates the need for doing a clearing test before every batch of film through the fixer.

But do test for clearing regularly as the fixer nears the end of its useful life. Discard it before it reaches 2x the clearing time in fresh fix rather than after.

If your problem with pink stain persists even if your fixer is in good shape (I've had problems with TMax 400 for some strange reason), a weak alkaline bath before the final wash will do the job. I've used sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), sodium metaborate and even the spent developer as a pre-wash alkaline bath the remove the pink tinge. All work superbly, just take different times. You can easily see the results.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

TMax is well worth the extra fixer!! Using a hypo clearing agent isn't necessary but helps to get rid of the purple.

mshchem said:

TMax is well worth the extra fixer!! Using a hypo clearing agent isn't necessary but helps to get rid of the purple.

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Just note that using a wash aid like hypo clear is not recommended when using staining developers like PMK. It can reduce the stain.

Doremus

Refix the film and use hypo neutralizer, then wash well. T-Max and Delta films need more fixing times than other films.

Doremus Scudder said:

Just note that using a wash aid like hypo clear is not recommended when using staining developers like PMK. It can reduce the stain.

Doremus

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TMax & XTOL =

Doremus Scudder said:

Just note that using a wash aid like hypo clear is not recommended when using staining developers like PMK. It can reduce the stain.

Doremus

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No worries, this won't happen. The pyro stain is pretty darn resistant to nearly everything you can throw at it. This also includes acid fixers and selenium toner, btw - two other common myths.

koraks said:

No worries, this won't happen. The pyro stain is pretty darn resistant to nearly everything you can throw at it. This also includes acid fixers and selenium toner, btw - two other common myths.

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Well, I've had selenium toner remove stain from a PMK negative... Don't know how a pyrocat neg would respond. Maybe the pyrocatechol stain is more resistant than the pyrogallol stain. In my case, I was trying to selenium intensify a negative. The toner (KRST 1+9) removed the stain so any stain tint was no longer visible, The added density supplied by the toner was just about exactly offset by the loss of stain density. Now if I need to intensify a PMK neg, I use a bleach-redevelop method.

As for sulfite-based wash aid. I've never tested myself, just taking the work of Gordon Hutchings in his Book of Pyro.

Next time I'm developing negatives, I'll try one in a sulfite solution and see how the stain does.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus, Andy tested it with 510 pyro at the same time I tested it with pyrocat. Selenium toner didn't do doodly squat on the stain in our separate experiments. I never tested PMK specifically but am extremely skeptical that the stain pyrogallol creates in that formula would be any different or less persistent than in eg 510 pyro.

I can't explain what you saw, as I wasn't there, I don't know the conditions under which you observed this nor do I know what specifically you observed.

The tests I did involved bleaching out the silver image to make anything that happened to the stain visible. Pictures are on my blog. Andy compared density before and after selenium toning on an unbleached negative and observed no effect that resemlbed reduction of the stain. His results are on youtube.

I remain skeptical, that's all I can say.

Koraks,

You've certainly done better tests than I, so I'll defer to your research. I'll check out your blog and I'll do a bit of testing of my own at some point and see if I get different results. However, as I remember correctly, the removal of the stain with the toner was quite visible. And, I wonder why Hutchings (et al.) recommend no wash aid with PMK. Another myth maybe.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

And, I wonder why Hutchings (et al.) recommend no wash aid with PMK. Another myth maybe.

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That's what I suspect. People like Hutchings have done excellent work, but it's inevitable that in a wide range of experiments, formulas and practices developed, there will be the odd inaccuracy here or there. Or sometimes perhaps just a small bit of caution that doesn't turn out to be quite necessary!

Hi there! I'm among these people who thought that the purple tint is an indicator of underfixed film and always tried to eliminate it with increasing fixing time. Because one guy from some forum once told me......
Bu recently I emailed to Ilford and here is the answer:

The colouration you're seeing is unfortunately normal with all our films (35mm and 120 roll films) - they never will be totally clear. But, the colouration is only ever normally a very slight pink or purple tint.

The colouration is linked to our 120 roll films films containing sensitising dyes, and our 35mm films having sensitising and anti-halation dyes. (The anti-halation dyes are only needed in 35mm films - because of them being in cassettes and light potentially able to enter the cassette through the mouth-piece and fog films).

The dyes are normally mostly all removed during the washing stage. (Delta films need slightly longer washing times to remove them - as mentioned in our Technical information sheets).

We know some customers pre-soak films - as this removes the colouration too. We actually advise against pre-washing in our Technical information sheets as we find it can lead to uneven streaky processing effects, but this doesn't appear to be an issue for the customers who do. So this might be worth a try by you - if you don't do this stage.
Or you can maybe try washing for longer that you currently do.
The colouration does not alter archival stability of films, and it also won't have any adverse effects during printing stages. Its solely a cosmetic effect. That said, I do appreciate that for you and possibly other customers - its undesirable to have colouration.
Hopefully the above can reassure you all is normal though - but you likely can lessen it by ensuring the fixing stage is as we guide (and that the fixer isn't exhausted, or the fix time cut short), and that the washing stage is adequate (ie washed in running water, or with sufficient water changes and for long enough). Failing that helping, it likely would be worth you trying a pre-soak stage.
I do pass on comments as yours - to some appropriate colleagues who review customers feedback/wish lists (ie you are wanting our films to show no colouration). In this instance, its unlikely we'd be able to improve the film colouration and make them totally clear - given we have to use the dyes. But the more related feedback we receive as yours, could mean we more extensively review all.

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Matroskin said:

Bu recently I emailed to Ilford

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But Kodak's films do clear entirely! They're different from Ilford's in this respect.

koraks said:

But Kodak's films do clear entirely! They're different from Ilford's in this respect.

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So after rinsing Ilford is also transparent.
PS Kodak base is also not transparent - its pinkish

Matroskin said:

So after rinsing Ilford is also transparent.
PS Kodak base is also not transparent - its pinkish

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Ilford's films are transparent, but not perfectly colorless; they retain a slightly purple tinge as indicated in the email you received (my personal experience with e.g. HP5+ confirms it).
Kodak's films can be cleared to a colorless state with adequate washing and fixing.
In both cases, the actual film base used is virtually colorless, or at least not purple. The purple coloration remaining in Ilford's film is a dye that remains stuck in the emulsion.

All the Kodak films that I use, or have used...in roll, and sheets, TMY, TMX, after proper fixing (longer than concentional grained films, and in fresh fix), HCA, and ILford's washing method, they are clear, and colourless. I was using TMX for unsharp masking colour films, due to it's neutral film base.

I'm not concerned about the color, but I'm concerned if that color affects the permanency of the film? In that case, I'd rather wash them all over again, which will be pain in the ass since they are all cut and sleeved, but it's doable.

hiroh said:

I'm concerned if that color affects the permanency of the film?

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No signs of this, neither in literature, manufacturer's responses to questions (see Ilford's response earlier in this thread) nor in accounts from photographers.
It's a non-issue, really. Don't worry about it