B&W reversal processing. Kit or dichromate bleach or hydrogen peroxide+vinegar?

Laci Toth · Apr 21, 2020

Hi all,

I'm planning to do black and white reversal processing.
My setup for ‘normal’ developing is Fomapan 400, 4x5 and 5x7 in Rodinal and I’m about to start developing them in Jobo 3006. I’ve done it in trays and the outcome was great but way too tiring and slow for me.
I use obscuras so I got contrasty negatives.
Ilford’s method seems very good but due to the high price of the sulphuric acid I might skip it for now and search for other methods and will get back to it if there’s no better one overall.
I’ve checked the Roba Apposta kit and they say it's enough up to 15 rolls 135/120 or 30 5x7, 60 4x5 but as I see the part A’s dilution is 1+1 and I'm not sure if I like to pour the same dilution over and over again for so many times especially that I need two developing stages for one round. The Rollei’s prices are quite high I think.
I've heard that people use dichromate bleach or hydrogen peroxide+vinegar and they get good results.
I'm also not sure about Rodinal for this process though it might come out well. If yes what dilution should I use?
Also how to control contrast and density? Just by developing time and agitaion or is there any other process?

mohmad khatab · Apr 21, 2020

Laci Toth said:
Hi all,

I'm planning to do black and white reversal processing.
My setup for ‘normal’ developing is Fomapan 400, 4x5 and 5x7 in Rodinal and I’m about to start developing them in Jobo 3006. I’ve done it in trays and the outcome was great but way too tiring and slow for me.
I use obscuras so I got contrasty negatives.
Ilford’s method seems very good but due to the high price of the sulphuric acid I might skip it for now and search for other methods and will get back to it if there’s no better one overall.
I’ve checked the Roba Apposta kit and they say it's enough up to 15 rolls 135/120 or 30 5x7, 60 4x5 but as I see the part A’s dilution is 1+1 and I'm not sure if I like to pour the same dilution over and over again for so many times especially that I need two developing stages for one round. The Rollei’s prices are quite high I think.
I've heard that people use dichromate bleach or hydrogen peroxide+vinegar and they get good results.
I'm also not sure about Rodinal for this process though it might come out well. If yes what dilution should I use?
Also how to control contrast and density? Just by developing time and agitaion or is there any other process?

The attached file contains all the details you want ,,,
With regard to the problem of the lack of sulfuric acid.
I advise you to do the following:
Brilliant copper bleach
250 ml deionized water at 70 ° C.
100 grams anhydrous copper sulfate (aqueous is also suitable but will add an additional 30 grams)
100 g sodium chloride (without iodine)
Water up to 500 ml.
-------------------------------------------------- ---------------------
Filter by the coffee filter paper before use
Use - 12 minutes, 40 ° C
- You should thank me.

SalveSlog · Apr 21, 2020

In my opinion Fomapan 400 and Rodinal is about the least usable candidates for reversal processing. I would not be able to get satisfying dmax (or contrast) with this pair. Fomapan 100 would be a little better, and something stronger than Rodinal might help too. (At least with the better suited films.)

Laci Toth · Apr 21, 2020

SalveSlog said:
In my opinion Fomapan 400 and Rodinal is about the least usable candidates for reversal processing. I would not be able to get satisfying dmax (or contrast) with this pair. Fomapan 100 would be a little better, and something stronger than Rodinal might help too. (At least with the better suited films.)

Thanks for your response! What you reckon then? Which combination worked the most for you?

Tom Kershaw · Apr 21, 2020

I've not done black & white reserval but would suspect something like T-Max 100 or Delta 100 might be a good starting point.

Laci Toth · Apr 21, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
The attached file contains all the details you want ,,,
With regard to the problem of the lack of sulfuric acid.
I advise you to do the following:
Brilliant copper bleach
250 ml deionized water at 70 ° C.
100 grams anhydrous copper sulfate (aqueous is also suitable but will add an additional 30 grams)
100 g sodium chloride (without iodine)
Water up to 500 ml.
-------------------------------------------------- ---------------------
Filter by the coffee filter paper before use
Use - 12 minutes, 40 ° C
- You should thank me.

Thank you very much indeed for you adequate response, I appreciate it!
I’m gonna have a look into it!

Laci Toth · Apr 21, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
I've not done black & white reserval but would suspect something like T-Max 100 or Delta 100 might be a good starting point.

Thanks for your thoughts! Delta 100 was in my mind so I might give it a go as I loved the tones when I shot on medium format.

mohmad khatab · Apr 21, 2020

Laci Toth said:
Thank you very much indeed for you adequate response, I appreciate it!
I’m gonna have a look into it!

What are the most important landmarks of Bristol?
What industries is Bristol famous for?

koraks · Apr 21, 2020

Fomapan 100, 200 and 400 will all easily reach the required dmax. Out of those, 100 & 200 are the easiest to build a lot of density with. Personally, for reversal processing, I'd start with Fomapan 100. (In fact, I did, back when I experimented a bit with this!) TMAX 100, FP4+ etc. will all also work just fine of course. Basically any film can be made to work. You just have to adjust the chemistry a bit to the specifics of the film.

Instead of Rodinal, I'd look at something more vigorous; let's say Dektol/D72 or so, at half the dilution you'd use for paper or thereabouts.

Laci Toth said:
the high price of the sulphuric acid

Is it that expensive? Do you have a car parts/auto store in your area? Look for battery acid. It's 34% sulfuric acid. Many auto parts/tuning/etc stores still carry it. Should be fairly cheap, especially you don't need a whole lot of it anyway.

Laci Toth · Apr 22, 2020

koraks said:
Fomapan 100, 200 and 400 will all easily reach the required dmax. Out of those, 100 & 200 are the easiest to build a lot of density with. Personally, for reversal processing, I'd start with Fomapan 100. (In fact, I did, back when I experimented a bit with this!) TMAX 100, FP4+ etc. will all also work just fine of course. Basically any film can be made to work. You just have to adjust the chemistry a bit to the specifics of the film.

Instead of Rodinal, I'd look at something more vigorous; let's say Dektol/D72 or so, at half the dilution you'd use for paper or thereabouts.

Is it that expensive? Do you have a car parts/auto store in your area? Look for battery acid. It's 34% sulfuric acid. Many auto parts/tuning/etc stores still carry it. Should be fairly cheap, especially you don't need a whole lot of it anyway.

Thanks for letting me know that Foma also works well!
Yes sulphuric acid is expensive, 500ml 10% bottle costs £38 plus postage. I’ve found battery acid but individuals need a license for it though not all websites ask it. I’m not sure if I’d like to dilute this harsh chemical and take the risk.
I’ve seen that hydrogen peroxide+vinegar also works but due the current situation the price of the hydrogen peroxide went up by 7x.
I might get a kit!

Donald Qualls · Apr 22, 2020

I've done reversal (twice. about twelve years ago) with dichromate bleach and battery acid (which I can get locally at reasonable cost, here in the USA). Diluting the acid wasn't a big deal; just remember to always add acid to water, not the other way (and battery acid, at only 30%, is dilute enough already this isn't the big issue it would be if you were starting from concentrated sulfuric). Wear safety glasses or a face shield, and for dichromate absolutely were nitrile gloves -- and it works pretty well.

When I did it, I used Dektol 1+2 with some thiosulfate added for the first developer, light exposure reversal, and HC-110 for the second; I shot Tri-X at EI 640 and 800 (two different rolls) and got what seemed good results -- but then the last time I saw a B&W slide before that was about 1970. In scans, the grain seemed very smooth (probably because all the big grain developed in the first dev and was removed by the bleach).

If you have access to potassium dichromate or potassium permanganate, you can use sodium bisulfate in place of the acid; that might be easier to get in a restricitve environment (you can't as easily throw it in someone's face, for instance).

mohmad khatab · Apr 22, 2020

Laci Toth said:
Thanks for letting me know that Foma also works well!
Yes sulphuric acid is expensive, 500ml 10% bottle costs £38 plus postage. I’ve found battery acid but individuals need a license for it though not all websites ask it. I’m not sure if I’d like to dilute this harsh chemical and take the risk.
I’ve seen that hydrogen peroxide+vinegar also works but due the current situation the price of the hydrogen peroxide went up by 7x.
I might get a kit!

I gave you the magic solution, but you refused my gift.
I do not know why ?
Copper sulfate is the cheapest chemical in the world, and it is very reliable in results.
You cannot buy sulfuric acid, you cannot buy peroxide, you cannot buy permanganate, and you have no choice but to take my advice,
But you still refuse to accept my gift without a compelling reason.
as you like
You will regret.

Laci Toth · Apr 22, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
I gave you the magic solution, but you refused my gift.
I do not know why ?
Copper sulfate is the cheapest chemical in the world, and it is very reliable in results.
You cannot buy sulfuric acid, you cannot buy peroxide, you cannot buy permanganate, and you have no choice but to take my advice,
But you still refuse to accept my gift without a compelling reason.
as you like
You will regret.

Sir,

I can buy them it’s not the case.
I just go over the processes I met during my researches and people can give me advices how they had done it. I appreciate that this forum is existing and all the people’s kindness, knowledge and their help, same how I do appreciate yours. I will look into your idea as well later on but I wanna get to know all the possibilities I can take into account and step by step will process them by thinking about them before I gather up as many infos as I can as to which would worth to start with.

afriman · Apr 22, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
I gave you the magic solution, but you refused my gift.
I do not know why ?
Copper sulfate is the cheapest chemical in the world, and it is very reliable in results.
You cannot buy sulfuric acid, you cannot buy peroxide, you cannot buy permanganate, and you have no choice but to take my advice,
But you still refuse to accept my gift without a compelling reason.
as you like
You will regret.

The OP is under no obligation to accept your "gift" without considering other options. And please stop posting in bold. It's rude and extremely irritating. It's as though you are shouting all the time.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 22, 2020

Laci,

You can use Sodium Bisulphate as a substitute for Sulphuric Acid in Dichromate bleach if it is cheaper. See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...id-w-v-calculation-query.127462/#post-1683036 for the substitution formula.

Dichromate bleach requires care in handling both when mixing it and when using and disposing it.

Copper Sulphate bleach works well for B&W film reversal but it requires an additional step that uses Ammonia. It's also slow, sometimes agonisingly so. See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/copper-sulphate-b-w-reversal-bleach.137943/ for details on how to use this bleach for B&W reversal.

There's some concern about the safety of used ammonia post bleaching.

Peroxide bleach at lower concentrations (2%) will not work well for film. See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...iocyanate-containing-first-developers.169169/ for using higher concentration and associated risks.

I didn't try Permanganate bleach as there were concerns about emulsion damage and shelf-life. However, when used with Sodium Hexametaphosphate, it might work well.

If you're not using a kit, you might want to start with 35mm film than sheet film. It'll work out cheaper as you can do your testing and tuning with short strips of 35mm film till you get a hold on the process.

Use a paper strength developer as the first developer - PQ Universal or Dektol. If you are interested, there are a bunch of other first developer formulas here: http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/formulae.htm

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 22, 2020

koraks said:
Fomapan 100, 200 and 400 will all easily reach the required dmax. Out of those, 100 & 200 are the easiest to build a lot of density with. Personally, for reversal processing, I'd start with Fomapan 100.

I've no experience reversing Fomapan. Interestingly, DR5, the ultimate benchmark for reversal to many in this forum, doesn't recommend Fomapan films for reversal and says they can't be run through the dr5 process: http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/filmreviewdev1.html

mohmad khatab · Apr 22, 2020

afriman said:
The OP is under no obligation to accept your "gift" without considering other options. And please stop posting in bold. It's rude and extremely irritating. It's as though you are shouting all the time.

Yes, you are right ,
There is nothing that obliges a man to use my advice. Your words are really true ,,
Writing in bold is not considered to violate the laws of the forum.
- I will not stop using the outline ,, you can hit your head against the wall if you don't like it ,,

afriman · Apr 23, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
Writing in bold is not considered to violate the laws of the forum.
- I will not stop using the outline ,, you can hit your head against the wall if you don't like it ,,

You would be well advised to read the following: https://www.businessemailetiquette.com/is-this-shouting-too/
Although it contains advice intended primarily for business emails, it is equally relevant to forums like this. Get rid of the crutches (bold, colours, large font size) and concentrate on communicating effectively with your words alone. Readers will respond with much more sympathy. I hope you accept that advice as my gift to you!

mohmad khatab · Apr 23, 2020

afriman said:
You would be well advised to read the following: https://www.businessemailetiquette.com/is-this-shouting-too/
Although it contains advice intended primarily for business emails, it is equally relevant to forums like this. Get rid of the crutches (bold, colours, large font size) and concentrate on communicating effectively with your words alone. Readers will respond with much more sympathy. I hope you accept that advice as my gift to you!

These are useful general advice, but they do not represent the official forum laws.
But I can accept these texts, but I am not obligated to submit to them.
Your style of advice is a little quieter and a little more friendly, which encourages me to respond to these tips.

afriman · Apr 23, 2020

Another good source on forum etiquette: https://www.boonex.com/n/Forum_Etiquette_and_the_need_for_it
I apologise for hijacking this thread. This has just been a major source of irritation for quite a while now.

mohmad khatab · Apr 23, 2020

afriman said:
Another good source on forum etiquette: https://www.boonex.com/n/Forum_Etiquette_and_the_need_for_it
I apologise for hijacking this thread. This has just been a major source of irritation for quite a while now.

Well ,, good advice.
- Let me know ,,
Have you ever used copper bleacher before?
I mean here anhydrous copper sulfate.
I think it is more accurate in bleaching.

Laci Toth · Apr 23, 2020

Thank you everyone for your input! I gathered up so many possibilities.
I’ve done the math and if I follow the Ilford’s recipe which I assume is quite accurate and if I can get sulphuric acid or any other ingredient as a replacement I get a very close number only a slight difference to a reversal kit’s cost.
I calculated 4 4x5 sheets to make it easier as the kit notes 135/120 rolls.
So in case of 4 sheets of Delta 100 4x5 in a Jobo 3006 in one round:
Delta 100-£7.50, 4 sheets
PQ Universal-£0.50, first dev 100ml+ second dev 100ml
Sodium thiosulphate-£0.06, 12g
Sulphuric acid(battery acid diluted to 10%)-£0.15, 100ml
Potassium permanganate-£0.08, 2g
Sodium metabisulphite-£0.30, 25g
Ilford fix-£0.60, 100ml
Wetting agent-£0.03
— — —
£9.22/4 sheet which is £2.30/sheet

If Roba Apposta is right and I can reverse 15 135/120 rolls or 15 8x10 or 60 4x5 sheets with one kit then the numbers are:
£34 for Roba Apposta kit
£9 Ilford fixer
£0.45 Wetting agent
£113 Delta 100 4x5 60 sheets
— — —
£156.45/60 sheet which is £2.60/sheet

If it’s only 40 sheets then it’s £2.9/sheet.
If it’s just the half of what they claim so 30 sheets then it’s £3.17/sheet.

Lachlan Young · Apr 23, 2020

There was a thread recently about reversal processing BW - here are a few conclusions that you should probably investigate: you don't need to use sulphuric acid, you can subsititute Sodium Bisulfate at the appropriate ratio (there are several threads on here about that); if you add 20g/l of Calgon to your bleach, it'll last much better; you don't necessarily need a solvent in the first developer - a development accelerator such as PEG 1500 is seemingly much more effective. That said, I'd probably try the Foma reversal kit first, before trying anything else. There's no point in using alternative bleaches, as all they are trying to do is get better stability than the acidified permanganate has - and Agfa solved that with the addition of Calgon.

Laci Toth · Apr 23, 2020

afriman said:
I apologise for hijacking this thread. This has just been a major source of irritation for quite a while now.

No worries, I totally got you and second your opinion!

Laci Toth · Apr 23, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
There was a thread recently about reversal processing BW - here are a few conclusions that you should probably investigate: you don't need to use sulphuric acid, you can subsititute Sodium Bisulfate at the appropriate ratio (there are several threads on here about that); if you add 20g/l of Calgon to your bleach, it'll last much better; you don't necessarily need a solvent in the first developer - a development accelerator such as PEG 1500 is seemingly much more effective. That said, I'd probably try the Foma reversal kit first, before trying anything else. There's no point in using alternative bleaches, as all they are trying to do is get better stability than the acidified permanganate has - and Agfa solved that with the addition of Calgon.

Thanks for your ideas! I need time to process all these infos as there are so many and will work out something to roll on!

B&W reversal processing. Kit or dichromate bleach or hydrogen peroxide+vinegar?

Laci Toth

mohmad khatab

Attachments

SalveSlog

Laci Toth

Tom Kershaw

Laci Toth

Laci Toth

mohmad khatab

koraks

Moderator

Laci Toth

Donald Qualls

mohmad khatab

Laci Toth

afriman

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Raghu Kuvempunagar

mohmad khatab

afriman

mohmad khatab

afriman

mohmad khatab

Laci Toth

Lachlan Young

Laci Toth

Laci Toth

B&W reversal processing. Kit or dichromate bleach or hydrogen peroxide+vinegar?

Attachments

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency