B&W Reversal: mysterious transparency

gioffry · Nov 1, 2017

Hi guys,
This morning I expose two FP4 (bought yesterday - fresh!).
Today, in the afternoon, I mix the reversal kit (Bellini.it - bought last week - fresh!).
I prepare 500ml solutions labeling everything for good and bring them to temperature with Jobo CPE.

First development + Wash
Bleaching + Washing
Clarifying + Washing
Reversal (this kit has the chemical fog) + Wash

Everything is based on prescribed times with slow but continuous agitation.

At this point, I open the tank and check that the film was impressed: everything ok ... the image exists and the film has its own yellowish / creamy color.

I close the tank and continue

Second development + Washing
Fixing + Washing
Stabilizer

I open the tank and the films are completely transparent ... delete all the pictures !!!

I try to analyze the possible problems:

the first development was too hot (maybe I was on 23°C) but I don't think this is the problem.
did I use the fix first and then the develop? impossible: I remember a detail, so I'm sure I did the treatments in the right order.
the second development is exhausted? So I try: I turn on the light, I take a strip of unexposed film, it starts to fog, i put it in a glass, i pour the second development, i'm waiting for 4 minutes and i see that the strip becomes black (not exactly like the pitch, but a good dark gray). So I don't think the development is exhausted.

I no longer know what to say and what to think!
What the hell happened?

Thank you my friends!

Photo Engineer · Nov 1, 2017

One possible cause is using the fix before the second development by mistake.

If the emulsion was too warm and came off the support, there would be particles in the solutions.

PE

gioffry · Nov 1, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
One possible cause is using the fix before the second development by mistake.

Thank u
I’m sure!!!

I remember a detail, so I'm sure I did the treatments in the right order.
SD before FIX !!!!

Michael Howard · Nov 1, 2017

Chemical fogging agent went bad. My guess anyway. Does the packaging identify the chemical used for the fogging?

gioffry · Nov 1, 2017

tin dichloride and sodium hydroxide

Photo Engineer · Nov 1, 2017

Stannous Chloride goes bad very fast if not kept properly. It may have been "fresh" when you bought it, but you don't know how it was treated at the factory or while being shipped. If the reversal bath was bad, I would have expected some slight ghost like image though.

PE

Michael Howard · Nov 1, 2017

Yup. My bet is the Stannous Chloride went bad. I've heard of it doing that, and it is sudden death. The old Kodak E6 kits used it for the chemical fog, and there are threads here on Photrio where that was identified as a possible problem. So, the second developer was working, but there was nothing to develop, because the silver was never fogged. Fixer then took it all away.

Try another but skip the chem fogging step and instead expose to light, and see what you get.

Edit: Tin Dichloride and Sodium Hydroxide? Are you sure? That wouldn't work, the Tin Dichloride needs to be in acid solution.

avortex · Nov 1, 2017

If you're bleaching with permanganate and don't keep your temperatures perfectly constant during the process, it's highly possible that the emulsion falls apart.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 1, 2017

In the lab we would keep a piece of tin metal in the bottle with the tin (II) chloride solution to keep it as tin (II).

gioffry · Nov 2, 2017

Michael Howard said:
Yup. My bet is the Stannous Chloride went bad. I've heard of it doing that, and it is sudden death. The old Kodak E6 kits used it for the chemical fog, and there are threads here on Photrio where that was identified as a possible problem. So, the second developer was working, but there was nothing to develop, because the silver was never fogged. Fixer then took it all away.

After chemical reverse, I opened the tank and checked that the film was impressed: everything ok ... the image was there and the film had its own yellowish / creamy color.

Michael Howard said:
Edit: Tin Dichloride and Sodium Hydroxide? Are you sure? That wouldn't work, the Tin Dichloride needs to be in acid solution

Alessandro Serrao said:
Plus this kit yields very poor DMax (1.65 on Adox Scala).

I also chose Bellini Reversal Kit because I need to reduce the DMAX

TO ALL: I wrote to the producer, I'm waiting fot what he says. Meanwhile, I will try to remake the process by replacing chemical inversion with second exposure in ambient light

Rudeofus · Nov 2, 2017

Even if the Tin Chloride went completely bad, you did look at your strip right before second developer, so the strip should have been at least somewhat exposed in those areas you looked at. Can you confirm, that your film strip is 100% blank? Can you also check, whether there is gelatin left on your film strips? Even is there is no silver left in it, it should still be detectable by its optical appearance and response to water.

gioffry · Nov 2, 2017

Rudeofus said:
Even if the Tin Chloride went completely bad, you did look at your strip right before second developer, so the strip should have been at least somewhat exposed in those areas you looked at. Can you confirm, that your film strip is 100% blank? Can you also check, whether there is gelatin left on your film strips? Even is there is no silver left in it, it should still be detectable by its optical appearance and response to water.

I confirm you that my strips are 100% blank. No gelatin left. Perfectly clean and trasparent.

Rudeofus · Nov 2, 2017

"No gelatin left" means more than just blank, it indicates that the gelatin layer was removed, not only the silver within. There is a non-trivial chance, that the Permanganate softened your gelatin and that the alkaline second developer then washed it away. You can test this with a simple experiment:

place a short test clip into your bleach for a few minutes. You can do this in room light.
take the clip out. if it is no longer milky, then the gelatin is already gone
put it in reexposure bath and second developer, all in room light
check test clip again: it should be completely black now

Photo Engineer · Nov 2, 2017

There would certainly have been a gelatin mess!

PE

RauschenOderKorn · Nov 2, 2017

Maybe you mistaked bleach instead of fix or the second developer?

If you were able to see a positive image after fogging and there was no emulsion coming out of the tank - i.e. the emulsion is still on the film - this is the only explanation.

gioffry · Nov 6, 2017

Dear friends,
thank you all for your suggestions.
Yesterday, I tried to reverse again with the same chemicals.

I did these treatments:

First development + Wash
Bleaching + Wash
Clarifying + Wash
Chemical Reverse

At this point, I opened the tank and saw this:

So I washed for 10 minutes and made the second development.
I opened the tank and saw this:

At this point, I understood everything: Chemical Reverse was exhausted (I bought it a few days ago). So the inversion process had not happened. And the second development had no effect. So I exposed the spiral to the 150w fluorescent light. I think, however, I have exposed it for too little time. In fact, after the second development and fixation, the film was not perfectly black:

But at least, I finally realized what the problem was.

gioffry · Nov 6, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Would you accept a piece advice?
Toss out the Bellini kit and start mixing your own chemistry...

I think about it tonight and I'll tell you tomorrow

Alessandro Serrao said:
And please don't use rotary agitation: look at those sprocket holes...

No, sorry! I love rotation

twelvetone12 · Nov 6, 2017

But the kit was fresh no? I would drop an email/phone call to Bellini... (I wanted to try that kit too!!)

gioffry · Nov 6, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
But the kit was fresh no? I would drop an email/phone call to Bellini... (I wanted to try that kit too!!)

I wrote both to the manufacturer and the vendor

trendland · Nov 6, 2017

gioffry said:
Hi guys,
This morning I expose two FP4 (bought yesterday - fresh!).
Today, in the afternoon, I mix the reversal kit (Bellini.it - bought last week - fresh!).
I prepare 500ml solutions labeling everything for good and bring them to temperature with Jobo CPE.

First development + Wash

Bleaching + Washing

Clarifying + Washing

Reversal (this kit has the chemical fog) + Wash

Everything is based on prescribed times with slow but continuous agitation.

At this point, I open the tank and check that the film was impressed: everything ok ... the image exists and the film has its own yellowish / creamy color.

I close the tank and continue

Second development + Washing

Fixing + Washing

Stabilizer

I open the tank and the films are completely transparent ... delete all the pictures !!!

I try to analyze the possible problems:

the first development was too hot (maybe I was on 23°C) but I don't think this is the problem.

did I use the fix first and then the develop? impossible: I remember a detail, so I'm sure I did the treatments in the right order.

the second development is exhausted? So I try: I turn on the light, I take a strip of unexposed film, it starts to fog, i put it in a glass, i pour the second development, i'm waiting for 4 minutes and i see that the strip becomes black (not exactly like the pitch, but a good dark gray). So I don't think the development is exhausted.

I no longer know what to say and what to think!
What the hell happened?

Thank you my friends!

First fix the film and after this develope the rest is the most terrible failure from film developing in general. (to your issue in regard of second developing step as you mentioned first developing step was just ok)
I wasn't able to manage it in this way all the years.The most bad case I made from
wrong developing as experience was with
two step developer (bw negative).
The developer was los (3/4 year) and with rose cast from its color.
But I trust to use it (Tetenal Emofin) with doubling the developer time (I realy wanted to know if I would lose.....)
After 12min. I was terrible surpriced of having step 1 unopened ?????
I mixed the steps

!
That was it to me ! So I was realy sure!
No wonder about because I wanted to know how it feels.
A very bad feeling of total lose with a film not so unimportant.

.
But I decided to continue with step 1 and further estimated developer times.
Thema results wasn't very perfect.
But I have to state : I saw more bad b&w negatives archived from the 60th,70th (comercial developed).
In comparison to this my terrible loser development was class b ! (normal quality) in comparison but not excellent of cause.
From that day I was 100% sure it is absolute impossible to make mistakes in bw developing that ruins films in total.
When you have a minimum of experience.
But this seams to be wrong - your example does show.
Never mind gioffry - to mix fixer with developer is a case sometimes in commercial labs.
This issue is caused from new personal
policy we can obtain today.
Experts in labs may make something wrong - sometimes!
But student trainees in part time jobs in comercial labs don't know WHAT THEY DO when they are told : "Please fill up the
chems to maschine 2 this morning - and don't come above max. level again ! I do not say it again there are markings to max.level ...!!!!!!!"
The usually way in labs to mix some gallons fixer with developer in tank2.
AND THE BEST METHOD TO REFRESH FIXING BAD WITH JUST 1/3 GALLON DEVELOPER AGENT!
And no COLOR MARKING ADVICEMENT WILL HELP!
*(RED for machine developer is to fill in the "Red" marked tank........Yellow comes
to Yellow a.s.o.)
So it was with "mini labs" in the past.

"Red comes to "Yellow" a.s.o ...ähhm WHAT IS WITH THE BLUE MARKED TANK - YELLOW FILLED ALSO "

unbelivable these practice from comercials ....with the friendly help of trainees.

with regards

gioffry · Nov 6, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Then you would/will not achieve good results anyway because of laminar flow during the bleach stage,

questa non riesco a tradurla, magari se hai voglia mandami un PM in italiano (sono molto ignorante in inglese).

Alessandro Serrao said:
Regarding the freshness: every manufacture should stamp the production date and/or the expiry date on the bottles.
Few ones do.
Bellini is not one of those.
But I suspect the problem is inherent to the composition of the reversal stage, at the chemical level.

I'M SURE !!!

trendland said:
First fix the film and after this develope the rest is the most terrible failure from film developing in general. (to your issue in regard of second developing step as you mentioned first developing step was just ok)
I wasn't able to manage it in this way all the years.The most bad case I made from
wrong developing as experience was with
two step developer (bw negative).
The developer was los (3/4 year) and with rose cast from its color.
But I trust to use it (Tetenal Emofin) with doubling the developer time (I realy wanted to know if I would lose.....)
After 12min. I was terrible surpriced of having step 1 unopened ?????
I mixed the steps!
That was it to me ! So I was realy sure!
No wonder about because I wanted to know how it feels.
A very bad feeling of total lose with a film not so unimportant..
But I decided to continue with step 1 and further estimated developer times.
Thema results wasn't very perfect.
But I have to state : I saw more bad b&w negatives archived from the 60th,70th (comercial developed).
In comparison to this my terrible loser development was class b ! (normal quality) in comparison but not excellent of cause.
From that day I was 100% sure it is absolute impossible to make mistakes in bw developing that ruins films in total.
When you have a minimum of experience.
But this seams to be wrong - your example does show.
Never mind gioffry - to mix fixer with developer is a case sometimes in commercial labs.
This issue is caused from new personal
policy we can obtain today.
Experts in labs may make something wrong - sometimes!
But student trainees in part time jobs in comercial labs don't know WHAT THEY DO when they are told : "Please fill up the
chems to maschine 2 this morning - and don't come above max. level again ! I do not say it again there are markings to max.level ...!!!!!!!"
The usually way in labs to mix some gallons fixer with developer in tank2.
AND THE BEST METHOD TO REFRESH FIXING BAD WITH JUST 1/3 GALLON DEVELOPER AGENT!
And no COLOR MARKING ADVICEMENT WILL HELP!
*(RED for machine developer is to fill in the "Red" marked tank........Yellow comes
to Yellow a.s.o.)
So it was with "mini labs" in the past.

"Red comes to "Yellow" a.s.o ...ähhm WHAT IS WITH THE BLUE MARKED TANK - YELLOW FILLED ALSO "

unbelivable these practice from comercials ....with the friendly help of trainees.

with regards

Dear Trendland,
in the first test I don't invert fix with dev.
And I was assured during the second test when, after chemical reverse, i had the same result as my first test.

trendland · Nov 6, 2017

gioffry said:
questa non riesco a tradurla, magari se hai voglia mandami un PM in italiano (sono molto ignorante in inglese).

I'M SURE !!!

Dear Trendland,
in the first test I don't invert fix with dev.
And I was assured during the second test when, after chemical reverse, i had the same result as my first test.

Yes - gioffry I was a little afraid for this answer - because I doubt a bit - you as an expert of bw reversal made such misstake.
And of cause - I noticed before you mentioned it - that you don't mix anything.
But it is the simplest reason - simple answer is most the best way because of simple reason.
AND NOW WE CAN BEAT OUT OUR THEETH TO FIND THE REASON OF THIS
FAILLURE ...
I just love this....
Now it is beginning to become more complicate - I also was afraid from the
very beginning...

with regards

....what kind of chemical contamination can cause same issues as the results of mixing chems in 2. developing step ?
.......?......?.......?

trendland · Nov 6, 2017

Ok - it is quite clear now (sorry for not tough reading the full treat before completely!)
You have to make a 3th run with a homebrew 2. step reversal bw developer.
The chems are a little hard to find - but by the time - it should be also much more economical. Beware of correct usage of this stuff as you did before.
If it works you can of cause try your comercial kit again - but what kind of chem. interaction is responcible for exausting 2.step has nobody to know with the exeption of your kit manufacturer. May be they are just knowing this because of several complaint referrals meanwhile.
Sorry I have to quit here I just remember one film from 1979 as bw reversal and this was in 1979!!!!! ....
Perhaps PE has a further sugestion what may be the issue to instable reactive potential of 2.developer in bw reversal chemistry.
Others than contamination with fixer ?
Are you realy sure nobody else than you
have access of your darkroom chems?
May be your wife is intended to clean your darkroom meanwhile.
Notice : You shouldn't permit entrance.
It is an existencial matter to you.

trendland · Nov 6, 2017

Just from fast reading and bad translation : It is your reversal step (exausted / insufficient working)
this has much more logic - hasn't it ?
No problem at all - make a reversal exposure (the more the better) as you mentioned you are on your way
By the time the reversal step has much more chems wich may possible be hart to get everywhere due to new environmentaly regulations in some countrys.

Bon chance

RauschenOderKorn · Nov 7, 2017

If you are evaluating your options for B&W reversal, there is actually a HowTo by Ilford:

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Ilford-Reversal-Processing.pdf

B&W Reversal: mysterious transparency

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