B&W paper and colour negative

Matej Maceas · Dec 19, 2003

I was just wondering: would enlarging a colour negative onto b&w paper (and using a b&w enlarger) result in a normal b&w photo? Or would the tones be all weird? Or would there be a picture at all?

jtsatterlee · Dec 19, 2003

It can be done, but:
1- enlarging times are long
2- contrast is very difficult to control - either all high contrast with no midtones or all midtones and no extremes.

I have done it in a pinch, but would not suggest it has a regular method. (for example a friend of mine loves B&W so I re-printed his favorite color wedding picture in B&W as a Christmas gift one year - never ever again - and this is my best friend)

There are specialty B&W papers that are for printing color negatives, I have not used them. I belive they have a higher ASA to resolve probelm #1.[/u]

clogz · Dec 19, 2003

Kodak used to make or still makes a special paper for this purpose: Panalure.

Nige · Dec 19, 2003

did one the other night, Fuji Superia 400 neg onto Agfa RC paper. I ended up using a 0 filter and the exposure time was relatively normal (this is after starting at grade 4 and a long exposure since that's what I've always read) Either way, the tones were all out of wack... skin came out much darker than it should, but the rest was somewhat ok. SInce this pic was of my son and we want it for a 'his 1st 12 mths' theme, I'll have to get some panalure and try that.

brimc76 · Dec 19, 2003

I have used panalure a few times and had good results from it. I was a while ago, but I seem to remember something about having to keep the safelights off. Best to read the Kodak info before you start.

jtsatterlee · Dec 19, 2003

that is correct, it is not 'safe''

now i remember why the one package i bought is stiill chilling in the fridge.

Ed Sukach · Dec 21, 2003

I've just uploaded an image taken with color film and printed on "regular" black and white paper (variable contrast) - to the "Experimental" Gallery. You might get some indication of "tone" distortion ... not always a "bad" thing. Not easy to get to this "balance".

Scanning is always a problem.

David Ruby · Dec 21, 2003

I've been thinking about trying the Panalure also. I almost bought some on ebay, but was scared off when the seller told me that it is not variable contrast paper. Can anyone confirm that?

I print some color stuff on b & w paper once in awhile. Sometimes I get that great photo when I have color film in the camera instead of b&w, but I want to be able to play with it. I think I used a grade 1 or 2 filter to try and even out some of the oddities. I have about 45 rolls of color negs from a Europe trip in the late 90's that I'm planning on going back to and playing with some day. I did a coupld shots and they came out prety cool. I think you probably could pick them apart from true b&w negs if you really were into it, but then again, they can look good anyway.

jtsatterlee · Dec 21, 2003

that is correct it is not variable contrast. it has three grades. L - low, M - medium, H- High contrast. kodak's website states that L and H have been discontinued.

it also states that it is safe under Kodak 13 Filter safelights. (my statement before was based on the red circle with the big red line going through it on the packaging and the word safelight underneath the red-line)

here is the link for tech sheets the tech sheets describe a method using colored filters to control tones, in a manner similar to using color filters to control negative contrast during exposure

chrisl · Jan 8, 2004

guys, I was in a pinch for b&w film once, and have a couple of rolls of that C41 processed b&w film. Is this enlargable using normal paper, or is it like the negatives you guys discussed on this thread??

thx
Chris

Ed Sukach · Jan 8, 2004

chrisl said:
guys, I was in a pinch for b&w film once, and have a couple of rolls of that C41 processed b&w film. Is this enlargable using normal paper, or is it like the negatives you guys discussed on this thread??
Chris

It is close to black and white film. The image is not really black, as is common on the regular run-of-the-mill black and white film, but a sort of dark brown, formed not of silver, but dyes.

I definitely would print these on black and white paper. The results are far superior to those on color paper - as is common from "one-hour" labs.

Robert Kennedy · Jan 8, 2004

Which "C41 processed B&W film"?

There are two kinds that I have run into.

There is the Ilford XP2 and the Portra B&W. There are others if I am not mistaken, but they tend to be like Portra.

Andwho.... The Ilford doesn't have a brown base. It has a clear base (well, not THAT clear...seems to be a bit denser than say Pan F). This means you MUST print it on regular B&W paper. Print it on color paper though and it all goes sepiaish. Nice film. I've used and gotten good results.

Now, the Portra stuff has the standard "color brown" base. It is designed to be printed on color paper. When printed on color it comes out B&W. Print in on regular B&W, and well, I guess it works like a color neg on B&W paper.

Matej Maceas · Jan 8, 2004

chrisl said:
guys, I was in a pinch for b&w film once, and have a couple of rolls of that C41 processed b&w film. Is this enlargable using normal paper, or is it like the negatives you guys discussed on this thread??

thx
Chris

I've printed XP2 on B&W RC paper and it came out nicely, and the exposure times weren't any different from regular B&W films.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 8, 2004

Panalure is the stuff. I haven't used it for ages, and the look of color neg film on Panalure isn't exactly like traditional B&W, but if you need to do it, that's what it's for.

DKT · Jan 8, 2004

Panalure works the best. I use it at work occasionally--admittedly with a roller transport processor which makes usng it pretty easy since it's like a color paper & needs to be handled in the dark....

at any rate, it came in 3 grades as mentioned above--low, medium & high. I think medium is all that's left now, although I have used all 3 grades and still have quite a bit lying around. It's sorta funky stuff to use, but works best with a colorhead if you have one. You can shift the tone separation around with a filter pack, and you can also punch about a half grade of contrast higher with cyan filtration--although sometimes you pick up some grain in the image this way as well. If you need to lower contrast, the only way to do it is through flashing the paper or possibly through development. The final image tone can be sorta weird sometimes and has a smoothness, for lack of a better word, that a reg b&w neg doesn't have--although occasionally certain types of negs will end up looking mushy. All in all--it's the only paper that really works good with a color neg because it's panchromatic.

Hope this helps.

KT

chrisl · Jan 8, 2004

Kodak made this one actually, speed of400. And it's like Ed described w. a dyed look...pinkish/light lavender color base. Guess I'll try reg. b&w paper and if it fails, i'll track some panalure down.
thanks again!
Chris

Ed Sukach · Jan 9, 2004

chrisl said:
Kodak made this one actually, speed of400. And it's like Ed described w. a dyed look...pinkish/light lavender color base. Guess I'll try reg. b&w paper and if it fails, i'll track some panalure down.
thanks again!
Chris

I've printed Kodak "chromogenic" - C41 black and white (I seem to remember a "BW400" edge marking?) for my students.
Printed out on Ilford MGIV and Portfolio, I expected more of an effect on the contrast of the paper, due to the slight color cast of the base and the non-blackness (very slight) of the image itself. Actually, there was very little "shift" that I could notice.

I like the film well enough when printed on black and white paper - I don't like it much, at all, when printed on RA4 (I generally use Ilfocolor).

I've also used "Panalure" for printing color negatives. It is a panchromatic paper, designed to handle the various colors from color negative film, and render "proper" black and white values from them. Being panchromatic, it is sensitive to all colors, including the color of light from the usual safelights, and therefore total darkness is strongly recommended.

I don't think you'll gain much by the use of Panalure. It is designed for "many colors" as described above, and the chromogenic films have monochromatic (although the "mono" isn't a true black) images.

pierre · Jan 9, 2004

I like Ilford XP2. It's intended to be printed on B&W paper, and it almost makes 35mm look like medium format. The standard prints that come from the minilabs look awful though - they just print them on their regular colour paper. They are really only intended as proof prints. XP2 negatives scan very well too, and you can use the IR dust removal with them, unlike conventional B&W negatives.

bmac · Jan 9, 2004

I totally agree with you Pierre, XP2 is great in 35mm

harveyje · Jan 11, 2004

I have had good luck with the chromogenic films (XP2, Kodak, and Agfa) in MF. They print like traditional B&W on VC papers with color head filtration.

Robert Kennedy · Jan 11, 2004

I do like XP2. Only problem for me is the lack of "do it yourself" developing (well for ME at least). Although I should probably use it more. Can't go wrong with that stuff. Probably one of, if not THE, best chromogenics out there.

B&W paper and colour negative

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