B/W negative reversal for Ilford films

I'm trying to find out if Photographer Formulary's Reversal process for TMAX will work for Ilford FP4 125 or Delta 400, and if not, are there any other reversal processes out there?

Ilford have a PDF file on reversal processing. Here.

It's very easy. The Formulary kit should work with any B&W film.

Ian

This looks like it could be really fun. I hope this doesn't make me out to look like a dork, but could you use the acid from your car battery, assuming specific gravity at full charge of 12.0?

vet173 said:

could you use the acid from your car battery, assuming specific gravity at full charge of 12.0?

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Probably not, as it may contain a little lead or other impurities.

Ian

If you need sulfuric acid, use battery acid from the auto store. In the US it is 35% - 37%. Or, you can get the 48% acid from the Formulary.

PE

I am also starting to explore B&W slides for my stereo Sputnik camera.

A few questions come to mind from the research I've done so far:

1) Are there any fogging redeveloper formulas which can deliver neutral toned slides? All of the formulas I've reviewed end up chocolate or sepia if you use chemicals instead of light for the 2nd development
2) I'm leaning towards a permanganate / bisulfate bleach vs. dichromate. I hear this really softens the emulsion but that colder temperatures can help. Can I slowly cool the film after being washed from the 1st developer before I put it in the bleach? The bleach would be cooled as well. I'm thinking about 55-60F. I would increase the bleach time by about 2x.
3) I'm planning to use HC-110 according to Jordan Wosnick's formula because I like HC-110 and have it handy. Is there a big reason not to do this?
4) I'm planning to use Efke 100 and HP5+ for my films. Again, thoughts?

Thanks! I've learned so much from this group. What an incredible asset to photographer's everywhere.

Copying negatives

My reason for wanting to do black and white development is that I have some rare 4x5 photo negatives that I want to copy for my own keeping. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what film would be best or if it's even worth trying this. How much resolution of the original negative would I be capturing assuming that the camera was focused perfectly and there is no movement?

amuderick said:

1) Are there any fogging redeveloper formulas which can deliver neutral toned slides? All of the formulas I've reviewed end up chocolate or sepia if you use chemicals instead of light for the 2nd development

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There is at least one. I think it uses sodium dithionite, but I'm not sure. Haist writes about it in his book.

2) I'm leaning towards a permanganate / bisulfate bleach vs. dichromate. I hear this really softens the emulsion but that colder temperatures can help. Can I slowly cool the film after being washed from the 1st developer before I put it in the bleach? The bleach would be cooled as well. I'm thinking about 55-60F. I would increase the bleach time by about 2x.

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Alessandro Serrao, who also posts here, uses a process that runs at a consistent 20C (or maybe lower) to avoid stressing the gelatin as much as possible. He is able to get good results. I didn't pursue the permanganate bleach much as I found the dichromate easier to use, despite the toxicity (it is reusable, unlike permanganate bleach).

3) I'm planning to use HC-110 according to Jordan Wosnick's formula because I like HC-110 and have it handy. Is there a big reason not to do this?

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The HC-110 trick works well, but do a test roll first to see how it goes in your set-up. And let me know how it turns out!

I have to confess that it's been a while -- about a year -- since I've done any reversal processing. The last procedure I tried (which worked quite well) involved a strong solvent-free Rodinal first developer, followed by a separate reduction step with a thiosulfate bath. I describe it (with a link to the original) in a post here: http://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/archives/68

Hope this helps
Jordan

Reversal processing usually works best with 100-125 ASA films, random grain silver is much better than "designer grain", and sulfuric acid bichromate bleach results in better quality imaging. We do manufacture reversal chemistry.

The fomulary kit is optimized for the tmax100 film, however you could likely do better making it up yourself.

None of the kits provide a satisfactory fogging developer.

Grant Haist has made suggestions on fogging developers but should be modified for each use.

I would not suggest permanganate bleach. Not only is this agent explosive, it does not provide the best image quality. Sulfuric acid concentrations should be reagent grade - 96 - 13ml per liter [cant figure the % off the top of my head] for bleach. You should also use Di water as well. The bleach will leave deposits on the film if you use poor quality water, bleach agent or Sulfuric.

Dithionite does nothing to help the reversal process, its not even worth trying.

The best film for doing interpositives is infact tmax100. It is best shot @ 40iso for this use, to make interpositives. EFKE50 is also a very good film for this use but only in a chemical reverse.

Rodinal, if it has p-amimo hydrochloride in it [the new version i think does not] is actually a very good agent to use in reversal processing, a very nice image quality but very expensive.

regards
dw

www.dr5.com
www.filmrecording.net
www.filmprocessing.us

dr5chrome said:

I would not suggest permanganate bleach. Not only is this agent explosive, it does not provide the best image quality. The bleach will leave deposits on the film if you use poor quality water, bleach agent or Sulfuric.

Rodinal, if it has p-amimo hydrochloride in it [the new version i think does not] is actually a very good agent to use in reversal processing, a very nice image quality but very expensive.[/url]

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Perhaps a bit over-dramatic on the reasons not to use the permanganate bleach, used properly and fresh the image quality is excellent. It's obviously not suitable for machine use, but it's fine for small scale processing hence the reason it's been recommended for years by many film manufacturers.

As to Rodinal there isn't a "new version" only the name of the manufacturer has changed, from Agfa to A&O, it's still the same formula made on the same production line.

Ian

Thank you all for your advice. I have designed a few experimental formulas and will post my results.

One last question: I saw somewhere "Do not use stainless steel reels or tanks" in regards to B&W reversal processing. Is this true? Under what conditions?

..that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I didnt say dont use it, I said 'suggest'.

I "heard" from unverified sources @ A&O that they infact are not using pAminophenal hydroChloride, which is the main developer in Rodinal. Thats just what i heard, take it or leave it.

regards

dw

Ian Grant said:

Perhaps a bit over-dramatic on the reasons not to use the permanganate bleach, used properly and fresh the image quality is excellent. It's obviously not suitable for machine use, but it's fine for small scale processing hence the reason it's been recommended for years by many film manufacturers.

As to Rodinal there isn't a "new version" only the name of the manufacturer has changed, from Agfa to A&O, it's still the same formula made on the same production line.

Ian

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dr5chrome said:

I "heard" from unverified sources @ A&O that they infact are not using pAminophenal hydroChloride, which is the main developer in Rodinal. Thats just what i heard, take it or leave it.
dw

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Agfa's data sheets & MSDS have not shown Rodinal as specifically containing p-aminophenol hydrochloride for quite a number of years now, and A&O's current MSDS lists the same chemicals as before.

The A&O Rodinal product is still a p-aminohenol developer, and identical to the Rodinal produced by Agfa for at least the past 15-20 years.

Ian

Gotcha. And since sodium bisulfate becomes a sulfuric acid equivalent in solution, a formula using bisulfate will also corrode the stainless steel correct?

Looks like I'm going to need to find a plastic reel and tank...

Jermband said:

I'm trying to find out if Photographer Formulary's Reversal process for TMAX will work for Ilford FP4 125 or Delta 400, and if not, are there any other reversal processes out there?

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Yes, there are other processes, e.g.
Dead Link Removed

If you have more questions, feel free to email me.

Thank you all. I did successfully implement a reversal process. I'm not expert at it yet, but after some practice I expect excellent results. I think one can do a lot better than the TMax Reversal Kit and at much better cost.

I undertook this process with much interest. I reviewed the following information:

- the notes on this page
- your posts to Photo.net on the subject
- the discussions of ImageMaker and Julio1fer on the NelsonFoto forums
- the Ilford reversal recommendations
- posts by Alessandro Serrao on photo.net and apug.org
- posts on B&W reversal processing on apug.org
- lots of Wikipedia and other Google searches to help connect the dots and elucidate exactly what all of the chemicals do.

Below is my formula which I tested on 4×5 film using a Paterson Orbital Processor on Ilford HP5+ film.

All steps were subject to continuous agitation.

Temperature of all steps at 18C (64F). It is believed that lower temperatures reduce the toll that the permanganate bleach takes on the gelatin emulsion.

- FIRST DEVELOPMENT

6 tbsp Sodium Carbonate
15ml HC-110 (dilution B)
2g Potassium Bromide (optional)
500ml distilled water

2x Digital Truth recommended development time (to completion)

- FIRST WASH

Wash in distilled water, 15 seconds, empty
Wash in distilled water, 30 seconds, empty
Wash in distilled water, 60 seconds, empty

- BLEACH

A - 4g Potassium Permanganate
1L distilled water

B - 55g Sodium Bisulfate
1L distilled water

Mix A + B immediately before use

After 30 seconds lid can be removed. All additional steps can be in room light. Do not allow the film to be exposed to sunlight! Continue bleach for as long as it takes to remove all of the black silver image. Emulsion is extremely soft. Be careful in handling!

- SECOND WASH

Wash in distilled water, 15 seconds, empty
Wash in distilled water, 30 seconds, empty
Wash in distilled water, 60 seconds, empty

- CLEARING BATH

30g Sodium Metabisulfite
1L distilled water

Generates sulfur dioxide gas which can be irritating. Ventilate this step!

- THIRD WASH

Wash in distilled water, invert 5 times, empty
Wash in distilled water, invert 10 times, empty
Wash in distilled water, invert 20 times, empty

- CLEAR HIGHLIGHTS

10g Sodium Thiosulfate
1L distilled water

note: higher concentration will speed the process up to 50g / L

Agitate and inspect until highlights are just almost clear. This step sets your maximum ‘white value’. Should take between 0 and 20 minutes depending on solution’s concentration, the film, and EI

- SECOND EXPOSURE

Expose with 60-100W lamp at 1 foot distance for 1 1/2 minutes on each side

- SECOND DEVELOPMENT

1/2 - 1/4 strength FIRST DEVELOPMENT solution
Use 1.5x recommended development time by inspection until desired shadow density is reached. This step sets your maximum ‘black value’.

- FIX

5-10 minutes with hardening fixer inversion every 1 minute. You may not really need a fixer (if you’ve done the 2nd development to completion) but you do need a hardener. I use Kodak Hardening Fixer which does both.

- FOURTH WASH

Wash in running water for 10 minutes

- PHOTO FLO

1.25ml + 16oz water

- HANG AND DRY

Note 1: This film processor only uses 55ml of chemistry to develop four 4×5 sheets, 2 5×7 sheets, or 1 8×10 sheet. This is excellent economy. However, even at 4g / L of Potassium Permanganate, 55ml is not enough to bleach the film completely. For now I have extended this step to doing serial 5 minute bleaches until the pour-off is still purple (an indicator that the solution is NOT exhausted). I may experiment with a stronger bleach concentration.

Note 2: There is nothing magical about my wash technique. Use whatever means you are comfortable doing. I prefer using distilled throughout the process especially since it is only 55ml each time.

Others use tap. I like the consistency. I also mix all my solutions using distilled water for the same reason.

Note 3: The Paterson Orbital Processor is made with black plastic. After the silver from the first exposure is removed, you will still see a negative image because the black plastic is shining through the bleached areas. Lift the film and inspect in the light to make sure bleaching is complete.

Note 4: I chose permanganate bleach instead of dichromate bleach because, like many of us, I do my development in a bathroom used by all the members of my family. Permanganate is acutely toxic but dichromate is carcinogenic. I prefer obvious poisoning vs. lurking danger.

Sounds like you've drawn your own conclusions. Thats what makes the darkroom fun. You've also picked a good film to start with.

dw

Alessandro Serrao said:

Is there any difference between using a silver halide solvent in the first developer or after the clearing step?

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In principle, no. It just needs to be done before fogging.

Note that the clearing step itself can also have a certain silver solving effect. That's why the overall composition of all solutions need to fit together.

amuderick said:

- CLEARING BATH

30g Sodium Metabisulfite
1L distilled water

Generates sulfur dioxide gas which can be irritating. Ventilate this step!

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An ascorbic acid solution (at ~75g/L) can be used as a non-toxic alternative for the nasty metabisulfite clearing solution.

An ascorbic acid solution (at ~75g/L) can be used as a non-toxic alternative for the nasty metabisulfite clearing solution.

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Hologram -- clever idea. Do you see any development of the positive image when using ascorbic acid? Do you buffer the solution at all?

.. i actually do feel bad about not sharing what the dr5 soup and procedure is, contrary to many who believe otherwise. dr5 is different than anything posted on this forum. It has been advised by several highly regarded photo people we keep this under our hat until we stop providing it as a service or retire.

but i will give you this to your question... i would'nt use the mentioned solvent at all in a reversal process. you already know how i feel about the bleach

regards

dw

Alessandro Serrao said:

Is there any difference between using a silver halide solvent in the first developer or after the clearing step?

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Jordan said:

Hologram -- clever idea. Do you see any development of the positive image when using ascorbic acid? Do you buffer the solution at all?

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I am familiar with holographic emulsions mostly, which could be considered sort of high resolution black an white emulsions.
At the low pH of that ascorbic acid solution (> pH 3.0) development does become very slow. But to be on the safe side you'd rinse your film, to remove the ascorbic acid.

I've never used buffered solutions.

SULFURIC ACID does not attack stainless steel.

@Lowell -- Perhaps we are both right about the sulfuric acid and stainless steel: http://www.finishing.com/152/90.shtml
I've had no problems myself and don't think anyone will with the low concentrations we use and the brief exposure.

@dr5 -- Your process is a trade secret and you should keep it secret as long as it generates profits for you. We are all curious, I'm sure. I respect your choices and applaud your participation even to this extent. Personally, I look forward to sending some film your way once I graduate from test rolls and fiddling, if only to see the high bar you set! Thanks!