B&W-Monochrome from color negative film?

JW PHOTO · Oct 10, 2015

I know this is kind of a questionable question for this forum, but I thought it the best place to ask it. The trees in this area are starting to "sap-out" and the color change is on. I was wondering if anyone shoots a film like Kodak Portra and wet prints B&W from the negative? I know I want my cake and eat it too, but B&W doesn't turn me on much for Fall foliage like color does. This way would be much easier and I'd have a choice when shooting with a Rollei. Otherwise it's a bigger Hasselblad with two backs. If somebody does do this I need a paper suggestion since Panalure no longer is an option???? John W

I should also say that I'm using an older Ilford Ilfospeed 400 hs (35mm) and hl (medium format to 4x5) heads (VC) similar to the 500 head.

pentaxuser · Oct 10, 2015

In my limited experience projecting colour negs onto B&W paper works quite well. In my case it was Ilford paper but I am sure other makes will work equally well.

You probably will have to use grade 4 and may lose some tonal range but most if not all shots should be acceptable. Some might even be as good as prints from B&W film

pentaxuser

JW PHOTO · Oct 10, 2015

pentaxuser said:
In my limited experience projecting colour negs onto B&W paper works quite well. In my case it was Ilford paper but I am sure other makes will work equally well.

You probably will have to use grade 4 and may lose some tonal range but most if not all shots should be acceptable. Some might even be as good as prints from B&W film

pentaxuser

I do have some Ilford graded grade 5 so I can try that and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestion.

pdeeh · Oct 10, 2015

If you can find yourself a copy of the Ilford publication "Ilford Multigrade Papers: A Manual For The Darkroom" (their old "catalog #192 7328") it contains a section on printing colour negatives to b&w paper.

(Simon Galley used to send them out if you asked him nicely, but as he's no longer with Harman, I don't know if the new regime will do similar)

Richard S. (rich815) · Oct 10, 2015

It can be done but if you're taking photos worth taking why not make the best you can? I'd personally use the Hassy with two backs and shoot color when I want color and B&W when I want B&W.

MartinP · Oct 10, 2015

You could always try one of the Ilford digital-printing, black-and-white, RC or FB papers as they are pretty much panchromatic. The drawback is that they are only available in rolls (so far as I know), to suit the lightjet and led printers. Practicality probably depends on how much printing you want to do, versus the length of a roll of paper.

Marvin · Oct 10, 2015

pentaxuser said:
In my limited experience projecting colour negs onto B&W paper works quite well. In my case it was Ilford paper but I am sure other makes will work equally well.

You probably will have to use grade 4 and may lose some tonal range but most if not all shots should be acceptable. Some might even be as good as prints from B&W film

pentaxuser

So I guess that would not be using VC papers.

JW PHOTO · Oct 10, 2015

Marvin said:
So I guess that would not be using VC papers.

Yes, if I had to use graded I could and will probably have to if I go the one film(color) only. I'd prefer VC paper, but might just have to go with the Hassy and two backs like Richard suggested. I did keep my small little old 500C so it's not much bigger than a Rolleiflex. John W

Sirius Glass · Oct 10, 2015

Richard S. (rich815) said:
It can be done but if you're taking photos worth taking why not make the best you can? I'd personally use the Hassy with two backs and shoot color when I want color and B&W when I want B&W.

JW PHOTO said:
Yes, if I had to use graded I could and will probably have to if I go the one film(color) only. I'd prefer VC paper, but might just have to go with the Hassy and two backs like Richard suggested. I did keep my small little old 500C so it's not much bigger than a Rolleiflex. John W

For medium format I just change the film backs on my Hasselblads. For 35mm I switch cameras. For 4"x5" I switch film holders or Grafmatic 45 backs.

JW PHOTO · Oct 10, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
For medium format I just change the film backs on my Hasselblads. For 35mm I switch cameras. For 4"x5" I switch film holders or Grafmatic 45 backs.

That's normally what I'd do too, but just wanted to get by light and use a Rolleiflex. My reason for asking is for Fall color I wouldn't have many if any shots I'd want in B&W, but you never know, there might just be one. And for that one shot I didn't want to carry a bigger camera or extra back. Sad to say, but that's what it looks like I'll have to do anyway. John W

pentaxuser · Oct 10, 2015

Marvin said:
So I guess that would not be using VC papers.

No, I meant that you would have to use VC paper and a grade 4 filter but I now realise this might have sounded as if I was suggesting fixed grade 4 paper which if it is available might be fine. The only problem might be that some shots might be OK at 3.5 and others at 5 which presumably fixed grade 4 will not cover but I have no experience of single graded paper

pentaxuser

MattKing · Oct 10, 2015

The results will depend greatly on the colour of the subject.

Cyan ends up white in the print, whereas red ends up dark.

And the naturally low contrast of colour materials means lower contrast prints.

Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 10, 2015

In the old days, there was panachromatic paper. But it's no more. It's hard to print color negs on black and white paper. I know I'm going to get some flack, I'd just do a scan and to manipulations in Photoshop. You can pick a color channel to use or mix them. If you do this often, try shooting BW with your color. I find color neg film not as sharp as BW film.

pentaxuser · Oct 10, 2015

MattKing said:
The results will depend greatly on the colour of the subject.

Cyan ends up white in the print, whereas red ends up dark.

I hadn't realised this so if you were shooting a football( soccer) game between a team in red tops and a team in light blue/tourquoise tops the colour film printed on B&W paper might give a greater colour contrast than would be the case if it was shot on B&W film?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Oct 10, 2015

JW PHOTO said:
That's normally what I'd do too, but just wanted to get by light and use a Rolleiflex. My reason for asking is for Fall color I wouldn't have many if any shots I'd want in B&W, but you never know, there might just be one. And for that one shot I didn't want to carry a bigger camera or extra back. Sad to say, but that's what it looks like I'll have to do anyway. John W

Well the advantage of the Rolleiflex is that you can avoid dealing with additional backs by buying additional Rolleis. For example you would have one Rollei for color and one for black & white, and one Rollei for wide angle color and one for wide angle black & white, as well as one Tele Rollei for color and one Tele Rollei for black & white. Just think of the bling of walking around taking photographs with six Rolleis hanging around your neck. Problem solved: no need to carry and swap backs and lens with the benefit of bling. My bad <<wink>> <<wink>> :devil:

Dr Croubie · Oct 10, 2015

pdeeh said:
Simon Galley ... he's no longer with Harman

???

ME Super · Oct 10, 2015

The directors of Harman (Simon Galley was one) sold the company to Pemberstone Ventures (I think that's the name). Read more here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (original thread) and here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (new thread). As part of the sale, Simon Galley left the company. Two of the five directors remain with the new company.

Sirius Glass · Oct 10, 2015

pdeeh said:
Simon Galley ... he's no longer with Harman

Dr Croubie said:
???

When Ilford was sold, Simon Galley separated from Ilford. He was a part of Ilford and an owner. Now that he is no longer an officer of and no longer connected to Ilford.

480sparky · Oct 10, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
When Ilford was sold, Simon Galley separated from Ilford. He was a part of Ilford and an owner. Now that he is no longer an officer of and no longer connected to Ilford.

Hopefully he remains connected to APUG.

JW PHOTO · Oct 10, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Well the advantage of the Rolleiflex is that you can avoid dealing with additional backs by buying additional Rolleis. For example you would have one Rollei for color and one for black & white, and one Rollei for wide angle color and one for wide angle black & white, as well as one Tele Rollei for color and one Tele Rollei for black & white. Just think of the bling of walking around taking photographs with six Rolleis hanging around your neck. Problem solved: no need to carry and swap backs and lens with the benefit of bling. My bad <<wink>> <<wink>> :devil:

You little devil you! I do have five Rollei's and one 124G Yashica so I guess I have it covered. Trouble is I have a weak neck and not enough camera straps. I suppose the color negative to B&W thing can be done, but I'm afraid I'd spend toooooo muuuuch time trying to figure it out. I've been doing a little more thinking and have settled on my 500C, along with my Super-Wide and a couple of backs. I have carried both before and it wasn't that bad. Not as easy as just one Rollei, but doable anyway. John W

JW PHOTO · Oct 10, 2015

ME Super said:
The directors of Harman (Simon Galley was one) sold the company to Pemberstone Ventures (I think that's the name). Read more here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (original thread) and here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (new thread). As part of the sale, Simon Galley left the company. Two of the five directors remain with the new company.

Holy shit Batman where have I been! I didn't hear anything about the sale or I missed it. I hate it when companies do this. It's almost like selling their sole for a few bucks. These things almost never work out for the better. The trouble is that the only people that get hurt are the loyal customers and all the employees below upper management. I'm sorry to say this but most of the dealings like this are greed driven and greed received. Oh well, there's always digital???? What a shame, but I hope they prove me wrong and pump out things like PanF+, Delta 400 and Delta 3200 in 4x5. Ya right! Wishful thinking on my part I think, but time will tell. John W

Sirius Glass · Oct 10, 2015

JW PHOTO said:
You little devil you! I do have five Rollei's and one 124G Yashica so I guess I have it covered. Trouble is I have a weak neck and not enough camera straps. I suppose the color negative to B&W thing can be done, but I'm afraid I'd spend toooooo muuuuch time trying to figure it out. I've been doing a little more thinking and have settled on my 500C, along with my Super-Wide and a couple of backs. I have carried both before and it wasn't that bad. Not as easy as just one Rollei, but doable anyway. John W

"I've been doing a little more thinking and have settled on my 500C, along with my Super-Wide and a couple of backs. I have carried both before and it wasn't that bad. Not as easy as just one Rollei, but doable anyway." ==> That is the way I roll.

MartinP · Oct 10, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
In the old days, there was panchromatic paper. But it's no more.

The panchromatic Ilford-Photo (Harman) products are HERE, as I mentioned previously. The question concerns the contrast of the material, as that would usually be adjusted at the 'digital-negative' stage, before going to a Lightjet or LED printer (which replaces the usual enlarger for getting the image on to the paper).

As the material is available only in large rolls, I have not experimented to find the tungsten-illuminated contrast. I suppose that, for the purposes of the OP, we would want to see a fairly contrasty material in order to cope with the relatively flat C41 negatives. Has anyone tried this? I have a vague idea that someone did, but can't remember the result -- perhaps it was Mr.Carnie?

JW PHOTO · Oct 11, 2015

MartinP said:
The panchromatic Ilford-Photo (Harman) products are HERE, as I mentioned previously. The question concerns the contrast of the material, as that would usually be adjusted at the 'digital-negative' stage, before going to a Lightjet or LED printer (which replaces the usual enlarger for getting the image on to the paper).

As the material is available only in large rolls, I have not experimented to find the tungsten-illuminated contrast. I suppose that, for the purposes of the OP, we would want to see a fairly contrasty material in order to cope with the relatively flat C41 negatives. Has anyone tried this? I have a vague idea that someone did, but can't remember the result -- perhaps it was Mr.Carnie?

Martin,
That sounds as if it's out of my league. I just found my "Ilford Multigrade Papers" - "A Manual For The Darkroom" and read the section on printing monochrome from color. Their examples look very good with Multigrade paper, but they do say to use a slow speed color negative film or grain will become a problem. I'm wondering if Kodak Ektar 100 is what they are talking about when they say slow? John W

Dan Dozer · Oct 11, 2015

I've done this once before - a friend came to me with a 120 film portrait taken probably in the 70's and wanted to see if we could make a B&W print from it. Worked fine with Ilford MGFB warmtone paper and the photo turned out real nice.

B&W-Monochrome from color negative film?

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