B&W in E-6 first developer?

Caleb Hauge · May 1, 2024

I want to try B&W on a $20 budget, which means I have to fit dev, fix, film, and shipping+tax all into $20. Or I could skip new developer and reuse my 3 month old E-6 FD that's already been used on 16 rolls. But how long do I develop for? E-6 FD is a very active B&W developer IIRC.

Augustus Caesar · May 2, 2024

I don't see how you can do it for less than $20.

mshchem · May 2, 2024

Caleb Hauge said:
I want to try B&W on a $20 budget, which means I have to fit dev, fix, film, and shipping+tax all into $20. Or I could skip new developer and reuse my 3 month old E-6 FD that's already been used on 16 rolls. But how long do I develop for? E-6 FD is a very active B&W developer IIRC.

I wouldn't try exhausted E6 developer.

relistan · May 3, 2024

Calling @Rudeofus who I'm pretty sure has done plenty of B&W in E-6 first developer.

koraks · May 3, 2024

Caleb Hauge said:
dev, fix, film, and shipping+tax all into $20

For how many rolls in which format(s) and what do you have on stock, film- and chemistry-wise?

$20/roll is easy if the volume is big enough.
$20 for a single roll as a one-time venture...nah.

Rudeofus · May 3, 2024

Caleb Hauge said:
I want to try B&W on a $20 budget, which means I have to fit dev, fix, film, and shipping+tax all into $20. Or I could skip new developer and reuse my 3 month old E-6 FD that's already been used on 16 rolls. But how long do I develop for? E-6 FD is a very active B&W developer

@relistan thanks for the heads up!

Here is what I know about E-6 FD to be used as regular B&W developer:

Typical dilution is 1+9 from working solution, which means 1+49 from E-6 FD concentrate. I usually develop for 10-12 minutes at 26°C (yes, twenty six, which is much more convenient on a hot summer day). I am a contrast junkie, so maybe others will prefer shorter dev times or lower dev temperature.
E-6 FD in different dilutions is very proportional, i.e. if you double dilution, you have to double dev times. E-6 FD working solution diluted more than 1+19 gives a concave H&D curve with very flat highlights, a bit like a compensating developer. At 1+19 all the way down to 1+3 it yields a straight H&D curve.
As you use E-6 FD for E-6 first (which I also do), you obviously weaken it a bit, but it'll still work. It won't give you Zone System negatives, but you already guessed that. Since exhaustion and aging are a bit hard to predict, you'll have to try and see, maybe with test clips first. If your developer is still pale, there's a good chance that you'll get printable negs with 12 minutes at 26°C, and you can always optimize from there.

Regarding fixer: Try to get 10l canisters of color fixer (either C-41 or E-6), these will work like rapid fixers but have near infinite shelf life both as concentrate and as working solution. Capacity will be like regular rapid fixer, of course.

With E-6 FD 1+9, cheap color fixer and dilute white vinegar used as stop bath you should end up quite a bit below $20/roll.

Romanko · May 3, 2024

film + shipping + tax will eat most of your budget. In long term and for large volumes mixing your own developer (start with D-23) and fixer is a good way to minimize costs. Bulk loading used to be very economic in the past but is less so these days.
Concentrated developers like Rodinal and HC-110 used in high dilutions are also cheap. With a two-bath fixer you can probably extend the capacity of the solutions. You can measure clearing time and discard the solution once it extends to twice the time in the fresh fixer.

Rudeofus · May 4, 2024

Romanko said:
film + shipping + tax will eat most of your budget. In long term and for large volumes mixing your own developer (start with D-23) and fixer is a good way to minimize costs. Bulk loading used to be very economic in the past but is less so these days.
Concentrated developers like Rodinal and HC-110 used in high dilutions are also cheap. With a two-bath fixer you can probably extend the capacity of the solutions. You can measure clearing time and discard the solution once it extends to twice the time in the fresh fixer.

Two very good points: choice of film will have much more impact on total cost than choice of processing chems, and yes, at least with photographic paper fixer is much more economical in a two bath setup - according to Ilford's docs you'd only need 1/4 of the fixer you would need with one bath fixing.

dokko · May 4, 2024

I don't really see the point of this experiment, unless you'd be more interested in fiscal challenge than photography and don't care about non-optimal and possibly disappointing results.

if you're really restricted to 20USD, then asking a fellow photographer near you to help you out would probably the better plan.
If you were in Germany, I could send you two rolls of fomapan (9EUR), enough developer and fixer concentrate to develop two rolls (4EUR) and shipping (7EUR) for 20EUR.

Rudeofus · May 4, 2024

dokko said:
I don't really see the point of this experiment, unless you'd be more interested in fiscal challenge than photography and don't care about non-optimal and possibly disappointing results.

The only "non-optimal and possibly disappointing result", which I can foresee here is people, who ignore the knowledge and experience presented here by others and only contribute their standard "never go off the beaten path" mantra.

Kodak abandoned research into B&W developers sometime in the 80ies, and these were the years, in which new findings were made in color photo chemistry. By management decision these never made it back into the B&W world. Grant Haist and Ron Mowrey pursued these approaches after their retirement and found value in them. One such approach was to use HQMS instead of HQ, which creates sharper and finer grained results.

Diluted E-6 FD has therefore every chance to hold up quite well against any "professional B&W developer" you may name.

dokko said:
If you're really restricted to 20USD, then asking a fellow photographer near you to help you out would probably the better plan.
If you were in Germany, I could send you two rolls of fomapan (9EUR), enough developer and fixer concentrate to develop two rolls (4EUR) and shipping (7EUR) for 20EUR.

Caleb's initial post does not sound like "I can't afford to develop 2 rolls", instead it sounds like a business plan under consideration. His talk about "shipping cost" and "tax" should make this abundantly clear.

Your 2 rolls generously gifted to him will be all but insignificant.

dokko · May 4, 2024

Rudeofus said:
Caleb's initial post does not sound like "I can't afford to develop 2 rolls", instead it sounds like a business plan under consideration. His talk about "shipping cost" and "tax" should make this abundantly clear.

Your 2 rolls generously gifted to him will be all but insignificant.

ah, in that case I probably miss understood.

I interpreted it, that he wants to try a single roll of black and white film and set himself a fixed budget for that. ie. buy one roll of film, developer, fixer, including shipping and sales tax for 20 bucks, and this as a one off.

in that case, getting great results with a non-standard process on the first attempt seems to me risky and not really worth it unless it's for the thrill of it.

if the question was about how to do high volume processing of b/w cheaper with E-6 developer, that is another matter. I still wonder how much money one could save that way, considering that there are a lot of rather affordable b/w developers.

dokko · May 4, 2024

Rudeofus said:
Diluted E-6 FD has therefore every chance to hold up quite well against any "professional B&W developer" you may name.

that's very interesting - would be great to see a controlled comparison.
has anybody done that?

Rudeofus · May 4, 2024

dokko said:
in that case, getting great results with a non-standard process on the first attempt seems to me risky and not really worth it unless it's for the thrill of it.

Again, if someone wants to offer this as commercial service, then this doesn't seem to be the first roll he's ever developed. E-6 FD diluted 1+9 is a very capable B&W developer, and since it doesn't have to maintain three color layers in lock step for this, we have a lot more leeway here in B&W than the E-6 folks. This makes this developer so advantageous for those, who do both E-6 and B&W: first we develop color slides, then the FD is reborn as very capable B&W developer - for free!

dokko said:
if the question was about how to do high volume processing of b/w cheaper with E-6 developer, that is another matter. I still wonder how much money one could save that way, considering that there are a lot of rather affordable b/w developers.

Nobody expects to start "high volume processing" for B&W these days. Even cheap B&W developer must be bought, whereas that E-6 FD seems to be already there. It's a synergy effect well worth looking at.

dokko said:
that's very interesting - would be great to see a controlled comparison.
has anybody done that?

I have been using E-6 FD diluted somewhere between 1+4 and 1+9 for the last 10 years, mostly for slower film (Fomapan 100, Fuji Neopan Acros I/II, Kosmophoto, ...), initially also for faster film (Tri-X, Bergger Pancro Pancro 400, Delta 3200). I have done some speed tests with Tri-X back then, and it holds up well compared to Promicrol. I have never made strict side by side comparisons regarding grain&sharpness, but the negs and the resulting prints look good. Since the stock E-6 FD was optimized by Kodak for sharpness, I have no reason to believe, that a dilute version would suddenly forgo these great properties.

Since E-6 FD is very standardized, anyone with an E-6 kit can easily try it out, either with fresh dev, or after an E-6 test run has been completed.

Caleb Hauge · May 6, 2024

It was more of a “I have $20 and want to give b&w a try” than anything else. IIRC Agfa sells some pretty cheap fixer at ~$5, so I figured that + a cheap-ish roll of P30 (got it for $9) would work. Unfortunately, shipping put it at $21, so I took off the fix since I‘ll have more by the time I finish the roll. I didn’t want to bother with buying b&w developer though because I don’t really shoot b&w. I shoot E-6 and sometimes Kodachrome (incredibly massive pain to develop, still working on getting correct color). Heck, it might be cheaper to buy sodium thiosulfate and mix it up myself. Hypo does still work on modern film, right? A rapid fixer is only a recommendation IIRC. Thanks for the recommendations by the way! I’m glad to know my E-6 FD should work fine. Even though it’s close to exhausted, I’m still getting good color slides out of it. Latest roll was a bit less saturated than normal, and all of my chemistry is getting dark, so it’s probably on its way out.
On a side note, b&w is confusing as heck. With E-6 it’s super easy. First dev for 6 minutes at 102 F. Color dev for 6:30 at 102 F. Blix for 8 minutes at 102 F. Bammo. Done. And it’s exactly the same for every E-6 film. But with B&W? Well first you’ve got to pick a developer, and you better be careful! Different developers will give very different grain and contrast. Once done, find your film in a time table and check how long it takes to develop in that developer. Each developer has a different time for every film. And make sure it’s done at 68 F and not something weird.

Romanko · May 6, 2024

Caleb Hauge said:
On a side note, b&w is confusing as heck.

This is what attracts me in the B&W process. I tried C-41 process at home got good results but decided it is too mechanical and is better left to a machine. B&W gives you all the flexibility you want. Actually, more than most photographers want. For most film stocks the choice of developer is not that critical. Unlike E-6 and C-41 you don't need to maintain a certain temperature, you can develop at any temperature if you adjust your development time accordingly.

Caleb Hauge said:
Heck, it might be cheaper to buy sodium thiosulfate and mix it up myself. Hypo does still work on modern film, right?

Yes. The Naked Photographer (Greg Davis) has a video on Youtube on how to mix your own fixer.

Caleb Hauge said:
It was more of a “I have $20 and want to give b&w a try”

Unfortunately, you will need to invest a bit more than $20 to set up your B&W process. It will start paying off very quickly, maybe after the first dozen of films you develop.

koraks · May 7, 2024

Caleb Hauge said:
Agfa sells some pretty cheap fixer at ~$5

You're doing E6, right? So surely, you have fixer already.

Caleb Hauge said:
Hypo does still work on modern film, right?

Yeah, although fixing a t-grain film will take a loooooong time with 'plain hypo' fixer. But your $20 budget is unlikely to land you with a t-grain film.

Caleb Hauge said:
b&w is confusing as heck

There's more variation in parameters, yes. Confusing as heck...I dunno. I don't really experience it that way. It's actually pretty forgiving, especially if you scan and/or print with variable contrast paper. Mess up the development time by 40%? No problem, you usually get a perfectly usable image. A few degrees temperature drift? Same story. How does that work out with color slides?

Caleb Hauge · May 7, 2024

koraks said:
You're doing E6, right? So surely, you have fixer already.

Yeah, although fixing a t-grain film will take a loooooong time with 'plain hypo' fixer. But your $20 budget is unlikely to land you with a t-grain film.

There's more variation in parameters, yes. Confusing as heck...I dunno. I don't really experience it that way. It's actually pretty forgiving, especially if you scan and/or print with variable contrast paper. Mess up the development time by 40%? No problem, you usually get a perfectly usable image. A few degrees temperature drift? Same story. How does that work out with color slides?

I use a 3 bath kit, so I have blix, which I've heard will just clear my film.

Honestly, my color slides have turned out fine within 7 degrees of variation. Sometimes I start the temp at 98 F and just try to maintain that temp, and it works fine at the normal time. Sometimes I'll start at 106 F, and it works fine. But yeah, it's much more fiddly. I could never do an extra 40%, unless I'm pushing 3 stops (IMO the only way to shoot E100 is to shoot it at 400 or 800).

koraks · May 7, 2024

Ok, I see, yeah blix is no good for b&w.
I really don't think you'll find b&w so confusing by the sound of it. If you can run an E6 process the way you're doing, then b&w isn't any more challenging.

MattKing · May 7, 2024

B&W is only confusing if you explore its flexibility.
If you pick one or two films, and one developer, the number of choices goes way down!
And the variation with temperature can be eliminated if you choose one single temperature, if you want to.
But the availability of making simple adjustments to allow working at ambient temperature actually simplifies things.

B&W in E-6 first developer?

Caleb Hauge

Augustus Caesar

mshchem

relistan

koraks

Moderator

Rudeofus

Romanko

Rudeofus

dokko

Rudeofus

dokko

dokko

Rudeofus

Caleb Hauge

Romanko

koraks

Moderator

Caleb Hauge

koraks

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

B&W in E-6 first developer?

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency