B&W Film In C-41. Oops.

Cholentpot · Feb 21, 2021

I got myself a nifty 6x7 film holder for my Century Graphic. Being that my C-41 kit had already been through 29 rolls I decided to test out the holder with some BW400CN. I have some that I slit down from 70mm. I loaded up and shot the roll. Along the way I messed up a few frames, forgot to take out the darkslide, didn't secure the holder to the back of camera, the whole nine yards.

Upon loaded the film onto the reel in the dark I thought the film felt a little thin for the BW400CN stock I assumed I shot. When I pulled the film off the reel after development I realized I shot a roll of Svema 100 at 400 speed and developed it in a C-41 bath. Dev, Blix and Stab.

Oops.

However, I did get a half dozen usable images. A bit thin but it scanned well none the less! It seems I reused some backing paper that I had used for BW400CN and neglected to scribble out the label before rolling the Svema stuff onto it.

Century Graphic, 101mm, f/11 1/300, Svema 100, Horseman 6x7

As a side, the Svema film is a dirt, hair and dust magnet. Very thin base but it seems to do fine in C-41.

relistan · Feb 22, 2021

Interesting mistake! Sometimes accidents like that are pretty interesting learning experiences. Thanks for sharing

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

If you got anything but blank film, your bleach is completely dead.

foc · Feb 22, 2021

Traditional B&W film will come out blank if put through C41. And by blank I mean no images or edge markings.
The only way I know of getting a B&W neg from C41 is to bypass the bleach bath.
If you suceeded in getting a traditional film developed in your C41 kit, then as Donald said your bleach is dead.

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
If you got anything but blank film, your bleach is completely dead.

Well, or Svema film has an unexpected inclusion of dye couplers like those in XP2 Super and the various Kodak C-41 B&W films. At the least, I'd suggest refixing your Svema -- it's possible the bleach component of your blix is bad and the fixer component isn't, but not very likely.

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
If you got anything but blank film, your bleach is completely dead.

How dead?

I just put a few rolls of film through it and they look ok. Not great but ok.

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

If the blix is leaving an image in silver-image film, it's leaving silver in dye-image film. This will partially mask underdevelopment by failing color developer, but will reduce color saturation. In B&W chromogenic films, the result of failing CD combined with failing blix will look fairly normal (except possibly for uncleared shadows due to incomplete fixing); in color film, the negatives will be dark (with only partially removed filter layer), colors muted, and there will most likely be color shifts and/or crossover.

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
If the blix is leaving an image in silver-image film, it's leaving silver in dye-image film. This will partially mask underdevelopment by failing color developer, but will reduce color saturation. In B&W chromogenic films, the result of failing CD combined with failing blix will look fairly normal (except possibly for uncleared shadows due to incomplete fixing); in color film, the negatives will be dark (with only partially removed filter layer), colors muted, and there will most likely be color shifts and/or crossover.

So basically what my film looks like when it's fresh chemistry...Kidding kidding!

If I run some 400CN through it and then give it a fix in regular rapid fixer would that salvage a roll?

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

It should (more or less) work. I regularly run XP2 Super on bleach bypass, which is effectively what that is. It's kind of false economy to keep trying to get the last roll out of exhausted chemicals, though -- at the least, it'll tempt you to put actual color film with potentially important images into that tired old chemistry.

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
It should (more or less) work. I regularly run XP2 Super on bleach bypass, which is effectively what that is. It's kind of false economy to keep trying to get the last roll out of exhausted chemicals, though -- at the least, it'll tempt you to put actual color film with potentially important images into that tired old chemistry.

It's not false economy to me. I have loads of expired film and very cheap ECN-II film. I always tend to throw it in at the end of the life of my chemistry. I tend to get about 30 rolls out of a kit.

This photo is from around roll 28. Portra 160NC. Expired way back in '02

I think around roll 30 there's a sudden death of the Blix.

This is from around roll 25. 500T shot at ISO 50 by mistake. Colors look ok still

I'm going to put a roll of BW400CN through and fix it. I'll do the same for some 50D and then throw into fixer. I've never played with bleach bypass before.

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

One thing I like about C-41 B&W film is that there's no danger of shifts and crossover, so I can do stuff like stand development with bleach bypass, and get exactly what I expect. Recently, I started a roll of XP-2 Super at room temperature for a 45 minute stand, processed a roll of Ultra 400 in Xtol while it was standing -- and since I use Flexicolor chems, I have separate bleach and fixer, which is nice for bleach bypass. This is becoming my normal process for XP2 Super.

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
One thing I like about C-41 B&W film is that there's no danger of shifts and crossover, so I can do stuff like stand development with bleach bypass, and get exactly what I expect. Recently, I started a roll of XP-2 Super at room temperature for a 45 minute stand, processed a roll of Ultra 400 in Xtol while it was standing -- and since I use Flexicolor chems, I have separate bleach and fixer, which is nice for bleach bypass. This is becoming my normal process for XP2 Super.

I have a good amount of expired BW400CN.

Develop as normal in color dev at C-41 temps and then fix as a B&W film should net me near normal results? Or the bleach in the blix acts as a clearing agent for the film?

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

The bleach converts developed image silver to a form the fixer can dissolve, as it does the undeveloped halide. If you don't mind keeping the silver image mingled with the dye image, you don't need bleach.

If you don't mind getting some extra film speed (I call it one stop, but the amount is subject to argument), going directly to rapid fixer after color dev (recommend a mild stop bath between) works fine, though you should still give the film a C-41 Final Rinse after a normal wash -- it's a wetting agent with bacteria/fungus inhibitors, to preserve the dyes and gelatin (may not be needed with the image silver present, but does no harm). If it's more convenient, you can also stand develop at room temp -- I've done this with XP2 Super, with excellent results. Forty-five minutes at 15-17C (my darkroom runs on the cool side), agitate continuous first minute, then just let it stand. Rapid fixer should work in its usual time frame even at room temp.

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
The bleach converts developed image silver to a form the fixer can dissolve, as it does the undeveloped halide. If you don't mind keeping the silver image mingled with the dye image, you don't need bleach.

If you don't mind getting some extra film speed (I call it one stop, but the amount is subject to argument), going directly to rapid fixer after color dev (recommend a mild stop bath between) works fine, though you should still give the film a C-41 Final Rinse after a normal wash -- it's a wetting agent with bacteria/fungus inhibitors, to preserve the dyes and gelatin (may not be needed with the image silver present, but does no harm). If it's more convenient, you can also stand develop at room temp -- I've done this with XP2 Super, with excellent results. Forty-five minutes at 15-17C (my darkroom runs on the cool side), agitate continuous first minute, then just let it stand. Rapid fixer should work in its usual time frame even at room temp.

Interesting. I'll have to give this a shot.

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

One caveat for stand development -- I'm running a replenished Flexicolor, so my developer is in a steady(ish) state. Nearly exhausted developer might have enough "stuff" picked up from all those rolls of film to cause bromide drag. I wouldn't try this the first time on images you care about. Then again, I wouldn't run way past normal developer end of life on images I care about, either.

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
One caveat for stand development -- I'm running a replenished Flexicolor, so my developer is in a steady(ish) state. Nearly exhausted developer might have enough "stuff" picked up from all those rolls of film to cause bromide drag. I wouldn't try this the first time on images you care about. Then again, I wouldn't run way past normal developer end of life on images I care about, either.

Would filtering the dev rid of the stuff or it's in solution?

Donald Qualls · Feb 22, 2021

Bromide drag is the result of bromide ions in solution. They can't be filtered out. In replenishment, the level of bromide is controlled by discarding a portion of the solution, replaced by fresh replenisher. In developer that's simply reused, it builds up. This is part of why bromide drag is an issue with Df96 monobath -- that solution is reused up to 16 rolls per liter (maybe more, if you're willing to extend process time that much and your negatives are still good).

Honestly, if you're processing enough C-41 film to be running that far past rated life for your solutions, you might want to consider springing for about three times the cost of a C-41 kit to get a Flexicolor setup. Developer Starter, Developer Replenisher, Bleach Replenisher (needs no starter for our purposes), and Fixer Replenisher (also needs no starter). Get the LORR version, and you can process around thirty rolls per liter of replenisher, and get up to 30 rolls per liter of bleach and fixer (and then discard them). And despite the lore, my experience is that you don't get horrible negatives from not processing enough; now that I've caught up my backlog, I'm processing an average of about a roll a week -- I can't say for sure that my negatives are perfect, but they scan well and look right. Once I can print them, I'll have the final proof. You don't have to mix all of the concentrate at once and figure out where to store thirty liters of solutions, either -- it's easy enough to mix just a liter of each solution and a liter of developer replenisher. That $120 or so (including tax and shipping) of Flexicolor chemicals will process more film than any three one liter C-41 kits, by a factor of at least another three times.

What I'm not sure about is whether Flexicolor is available where you are. It's not hard to get in the USA, but some other places it's easier to get the Fuji-Hunt chemicals (they make a low-replenishment system as well, and it's every bit as good as Flexicolor).

Cholentpot · Feb 22, 2021

I'm in the USA.

I would need to buy each part separate I'd take it. It's an idea I may pursue...

Donald Qualls · Feb 23, 2021

Yes, they're sold as separate items, but I got them all together in a single order from Unique Photo (in New Jersey). They don't always have stock, but they usually have all four necessary components when they do. Longer term, the Developer Replenisher is what you'll use the most of; the bleach and fixer have a long life (I do periodic clearing tests with the fixer, after around 20 rolls it still clears a piece of B&W leader in under a minute). You only need Developer Starter when you mix a new batch of color developer, or if you're one-shot processing.

Cholentpot · Feb 23, 2021

Is there a list of what I need and comprehensive instructions how to use the components?

I'm going to guess there's Developer, Bleach and Fix. Every X amount of rolls you dump out X amount of developer and add Y amount of replenisher. The components mix from a liquid concentrate and you don't need to mix up 40 liters at once. A liter at a time will do.

Am I on track?

Donald Qualls · Feb 23, 2021

I listed it in a previous post:

Color Developer Replenisher LORR
Color Developer Starter LORR
Beach Replenisher (replenishment style doesn't matter, but may as well get LORR, it'll give the longest life)
Fixer Replenisher (likewise, get the LORR for longest life).

The Fixer Replenisher is actually a little cheaper than B&W rapid fixer -- and you can use C-41 fixer for any film (except microfilm stocks, which can bleach in very rapid fixers). Bleach is expensive, but lasts a long time. You'll probably only need one bottle of Developer Starter in the foreseeable future. Developer Replenisher is what you'll use a lot of.

Kodak Z-131 lists how much replenisher to use based on film type and size; use the "sink line" table.

B&W Film In C-41. Oops.

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