B&W Developing Question

IanBarber · Apr 14, 2016

Under normal develop do the shadows develop first, then the mid-tones and finally the highlights or do I have completely wrong.

Reason for asking is that I am reading up on stand development and which from what I have read, the highlights exhaust first and then the shadows carry on developing so I am a little confused.

Peltigera · Apr 14, 2016

The highlights are darker on the negative and so involve more developing. In stand development that will exhaust the developer faster than the shadows which are very light on the negative and so do not have a lot of development going on.

IanBarber · Apr 14, 2016

Thanks for the reply. Does this mean that with stand development you have less chance of over developing the highlights which I am thinking may be a good thing for scanning

kossi008 · Apr 15, 2016

That's the idea. When you agitate, fresh developer reaches the highlights and they keep developing. But if you do stand development, the developer gets exhausted locally around the highlights and development stops (or slows) there, while the shadows have not yet exhausted the developer locally and continue developing.

John Bragg · Apr 15, 2016

I use HC-110 dilution H and reduced agitation, but not full stand development. I am happy with the results and they are dependable and repeatable which is an essential in any development regime. My routine for HP5+ and also Tri-X is to expose at ei200 and develop for 12 mins @20°c. Agitation is 15 seconds to start, then 2 inversions at 4 mins and 2 more at 8 mins and that is it. Negatives are well balanced with plenty of shadow detail and printable whites.

Boat trip, Mevagissey. by John Bragg, on Flickr

Ricardo Miranda · Apr 15, 2016

Nice shot John!

This one is from Fomapan 400 developed in Fomadon R09 (Rodinal) 1:100 stand, although I give 4 inversions at the start of the hour.

4-15-2016_038 by Ricardo Miranda, on Flickr

John Bragg · Apr 15, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
Nice shot John!

This one is from Fomapan 400 developed in Fomadon R09 (Rodinal) 1:100 stand, although I give 4 inversions at the start of the hour.

4-15-2016_038 by Ricardo Miranda, on Flickr

Nice tones Ricardo. I could never get Rodinal to work for me as well as HC-110.

Xmas · Apr 17, 2016

IanBarber said:
Thanks for the reply. Does this mean that with stand development you have less chance of over developing the highlights which I am thinking may be a good thing for scanning

No you can get very contrasty negatives with stand.
The development process starts when you pour in the developer, shadow and highlights.
It slows in the highlights as the developer exhausts, this slowing depends on developer concentration and developer type.
If you try Rodinal stand at 1:100 20C 60 minutes you will get a high contrast negative, medium grain for film type, high toe speed, low fog density.
Donno about other combinations.

ic-racer · Apr 17, 2016

IanBarber said:
Under normal develop do the shadows develop first, then the mid-tones and finally the highlights or do I have completely wrong.

Reason for asking is that I am reading up on stand development and which from what I have read, the highlights exhaust first and then the shadows carry on developing so I am a little confused.

You found scientific information on stand development?? Can you share it?

RobC · Apr 19, 2016

IanBarber said:
Under normal develop do the shadows develop first, then the mid-tones and finally the highlights or do I have completely wrong.

Reason for asking is that I am reading up on stand development and which from what I have read, the highlights exhaust first and then the shadows carry on developing so I am a little confused.

They all start developing at the same time and continue at the same pace throughout development. However, there isn't very much to develop in the shadows and so they reach completion of development(everything there is to develop has been developed to completion) before highlights do. The highlights therefore continue developing after the shadows have stopped getting any denser. And in fact the highlights mostly never reach completion of development before you stop development. And this is why you can alter neg contrast by adjusting development time which affects mostly the midtones and highlights by allowing them to develop further than the shadows which are fully developed before you stop development.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 19, 2016

Development of shadow detail stops when all the exposed silver halide is developed. Density of the shadow detail depends on exposure. In contrast to the shadow areas development of the highlights continues. Hence "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights."

Development is a diffusion controlled process which means that time is an important consideration. So in general development is controlled by six things.

1. Amount of developing agent(s) present in the working solution based on dilution.
2. Reducing power of the developing agent(s).
3. The alkalinity or pH of the developer.
4. The temperature of the developer.
5. The time spent in the developer.
6. The amount of agitation. Since diffusion is the limiting variable increasing the rate of agitation is effective only up to a point. Think of diffusion as similar to a ride at Disneyland. In the early morning when there is no queue everyone who shows up gets to ride. Once a queue forms greater than the capacity of the ride then the number of people on the ride remains fixed. Adding more people to the queue no longer has any effect. A bit simplistic but it makes the point easy to understand.

For prepared (commercial) developers the user has control of only the first and last three variables.

IanBarber · Apr 19, 2016

Lots of valuable information to chew on here, thanks

I appreciate that there are more variables than answers but for those that have more experience in semi-stand with hc110 than I do, would you say the recipe I am using is a good starting point. I am using Ilford FP4+ at 125 ISO

4 ml solution in 600ml water,using 1:160 dilution, 45 minutes @ 20C, semi stand
30 seconds initial agitation (gentle inversions)
Tap tank on hard surface to avoid air bubbles. Leave tank untouched during development.
3 inversions at half way (around 20 minutes – this is the “semi” part)
Tap tank on hard surface to avoid air bubbles. Leave tank untouched during development.
End at 45 minutes.
Apply Stop Bath and agitate for 30 seconds
Apply Fixer and agitate for first 10 seconds of every minute (total fix time of 5 minutes)
Normal wash

I have noticed on a couple of negatives especially with sky present, some signs of uneven development, like small streaks. I did read somewhere about pre washing the film for 5 minutes before starting the development, although the data sheet on Ilfords site for FP4 does say not to prewash.

Has anyone got any thoughts on this please.

markbarendt · Apr 19, 2016

IanBarber said:
Under normal develop do the shadows develop first, then the mid-tones and finally the highlights or do I have completely wrong.

Reason for asking is that I am reading up on stand development and which from what I have read, the highlights exhaust first and then the shadows carry on developing so I am a little confused.

Development starts all at once.

In general more developing time allows all the exposed silver to develop more and regular agitation keeps fresh developer available across the whole film area.

In the shadow areas there is very little silver to develop. The thought is that with stand development since there is very few molecules of exposed silver in these areas that these molecules will develop more because the developer in that area won't exhaust, even without agitation. The advantage that is hoped for is that a bit more shadow detail can be straight printed from a given negative. The problem is that if/when this works the separation between shadow tones is reduced, the shadows will print muddier than a normally developed negative that is printed where the shadows are dodged.

In the highlight areas there is more silver to develop. The thought here is that with stand development if the developer is dilute enough development in the brightest areas will stop or slow because the developer in that area exhausts, the chemical reaction "runs out of gas". The advantage that is hoped for at this end is that a bit more highlight detail can be straight printed from a given negative. The problem is that if/when this works the separation between highlight tones is reduced, the highlights will print muddier than a normally developed negative that is printed where the highlights are burned in.

If you do side by side test prints of negatives of exactly the same subject with only the stand v normal development difference you should be able to decide if it worked and which works best for you.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 19, 2016

silveror0 said:
Gerald, the user also has control of the first variable as well, provided he knows the capacity of the developing agent, usually provided by the manufacturer in terms of ml per unit area of film to be developed. Or perhaps by "prepared (commercial) developers" you mean those already diluted and ready to use?

Thanks for catching that. I have corrected my post. Initially it was not my intent to be so detailed.

markbarendt · Apr 19, 2016

IanBarber said:
Lots of valuable information to chew on here, thanks

I appreciate that there are more variables than answers but for those that have more experience in semi-stand with hc110 than I do, would you say the recipe I am using is a good starting point. I am using Ilford FP4+ at 125 ISO

4 ml solution in 600ml water,using 1:160 dilution, 45 minutes @ 20C, semi stand

30 seconds initial agitation (gentle inversions)

Tap tank on hard surface to avoid air bubbles. Leave tank untouched during development.

3 inversions at half way (around 20 minutes – this is the “semi” part)

Tap tank on hard surface to avoid air bubbles. Leave tank untouched during development.

End at 45 minutes.

Apply Stop Bath and agitate for 30 seconds

Apply Fixer and agitate for first 10 seconds of every minute (total fix time of 5 minutes)

Normal wash

I have noticed on a couple of negatives especially with sky present, some signs of uneven development, like small streaks. I did read somewhere about pre washing the film for 5 minutes before starting the development, although the data sheet on Ilfords site for FP4 does say not to prewash.

Has anyone got any thoughts on this please.

1-9 all I can say is trial and error will tell.

As to the streaks and uneven development, a regular agitation regime would probably fix that.

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