B&W chemistry and septic systems?

I am going to be moving to an area that doesn't have public utilities and will be putting a septic system in the home I will be building. Does anyone have any experience with septic systems and B&W chemistry? I will either be recovering the silver from the hypo or carrying it someplace to have it done. Any help would be appreciated, before a darkroom is designed and built. Bill Barber

So far I've had no problems sending the odd small volume of developer in Davy Jones Septic Tank, but for the most part, I try to take it to work to be recycled, along with the fixer. I haven't seen any problem with wash water going down to the lawn's basement other than it going into the greater ecosystem after that. This has been brought up before and there seems to be no clear consensus other than don't dump the fixer...

- Randy

developer and stop bath should not be a problem. Its the fixer that could be the issue since it contains hard metals. If yer reallly concerned, just get a empty paint bucket, fill the bottom with some steel wool. And whenever your fixer exhaust, just pour it into the bucket, next time you need to pour the fixer into the bucket, pour out what was in the bucket previously ( which should just be rust-water, since the steel is replaced with silver ), and continue until steel wool is disolved. Maybe if yer lucky you'll get a couple dollars in pure silver... like few yeaars down the road.

kb244 said:

developer and stop bath should not be a problem. Its the fixer that could be the issue since it contains hard metals. If yer reallly concerned, just get a empty paint bucket, fill the bottom with some steel wool. And whenever your fixer exhaust, just pour it into the bucket, next time you need to pour the fixer into the bucket, pour out what was in the bucket previously ( which should just be rust-water, since the steel is replaced with silver ), and continue until steel wool is disolved. Maybe if yer lucky you'll get a couple dollars in pure silver... like few yeaars down the road.

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Also mix the spent chemicals together, the developer, stop and fix. They nuetralize and make a wonderful lawn fertilizer. Why pay extra for something you will have ready made in the darkroom.

Unless you have "city water" coming in from outside your own groundwater, I wouldn't do it in a NY minute!

Since I doubt this is the case - how old are you? Or, more to the point, how old is the youngest person in your house?

I think anyone who puts anything other than organics is a septic system is asking for trouble. There is a reason why it is called "septic".

Look it up!

I have first-hand experience.

There are two issues. The first is the concern that darkroom effluent could harm the biochemical processes in the septic system. The second is that the septic system will pass through heavy metal waste (silver) to the groundwater system.

Our former house was built around 1948. In 1979, we had to replace the original septic system. I might note that my wife and I were the third owners of the house, and the first to have children while living there. So the fact that the first septic system lasted 32 years is probably attributable to the relatively lower rate of usage during the early years.

I first built a darkroom in 1977, and four years later built a larger facility in the basement. Initially, the darkroom effluent was disposed of in a separate drywell along with laundry graywater. About 1983, we abandoned the laundry drywell and put everything into the 1979-vintage domestic septic system. We had to replace that septic system around 1998. That had lasted 19 years with four people in the house, and for the last 15 years or so, with 100% of the domestic effluent going into the septic system, including the graywater from the home laundry.

I may have averaged a printing session once a month during the period from 1983 through 2002 when we sold the house. The effluent from a typical session would have included perhaps a quart of fixer. Add to that perhaps another quart of fixer from film processing (including some E6 blix during part of this period) every couple of months.

Was the life expectancy of the septic system affected by putting darkroom effluent through it? I think not. Certainly, the 32 years we got on the original septic system was far more than one might realistically expect of a late-1940's vintage metal septic tank with timber covers. The 19 years that we got on the second system was probably about typical, and the folks who rebuilt it reported that the failure was attributable to its design (it used a drywell rather than a drainfield), and the accumulation of soap scum (from the laundry) in that drywell.

I might be concerned about running a commercial or teachnig darkroom on a septic system. But the amount of effluent that would be created by the average amateur darkroom in a home occupied by a couple of adults and one or two children would be quite small compared with the total volume of waste that the septic system is called upon to process, and on that basis I would not the darkroom effluent to present any risk at all to the septic system.

The second issue is another matter. There may be a legitimate concern about the silver content in fixer getting into the groundwater system from a septic system. The solution to that is to take some simple steps to remove most of the silver from used fixer - put it in a plastic milk jug with some steel wool for a few days, and then decant off and dispose of the liquid. The sludge at the bottom will include (among other things) most of the silver. That sludge can be collected, dried, and turned over to a hazardous waste disposal processor. A lifetime of occasional darkroom work might produce enough dried sludge to fill a mayonaise jar.

I have been doing it in the current house for over ten years now and the previous house for over 15 years and neither septic system has shown any problems, if your a commercial lab, perhaps, if your printing at home for your personal use, I would say no based on my experiance

Kodak published a paper on this topic. They state that the hobbyist photographer need not be concerned about the effects of common darkroom chemicals on their septic system. Obviously, if you are a professional photographer developing lots of films and prints then you do need to be concerned.

BTW, this has been discussed in at least one other thread. Those interested might wish to do a search.

Monophoto said:

There may be a legitimate concern about the silver content in fixer getting into the groundwater system from a septic system.

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This is not a problem since septic systems contain a high concentration of sulfide ion. You know, that rotten egg smell. All the silver is converted to silver sulfide which is an extremely insoluble substance. There is no possibility of any soluble silver getting into the environment.

Any other chemicals like developers and fixers will be degraded by bacterial action and pose no problem.

The main issue is used/exhausted fixer. You see, silver is a natural anti-biotic, and too much silver over time can kill off the bacteria in your sepic tank, which prevents your tank from doing it's job.

There are various ways to remove silver from used fix - the old steel wool trick as talked about before is possibly the most simple and direct method.

Remember also that septic systems often get K'Od by people simply dumping too much used cleaning fluids down the drain. For example, you do a real, heavy duty spring cleaning some year, and after you finish, you dump a few buckets of used MR. Clean, Pinesol, Spic N Span, etc, down the drain, that is more likely to kill off a septic system than a few litres of used fix.

If your bacteria does die off, there are re-activators you can buy in local (mostly rural) hardware stores, but the old "cure" for a dead septic system was to throw in a road kill, preferably one that has been in the sun or heat for a couple days and a little smelly . Yeah, I know, gross, but I am told by both family and friends, nothing works as good.

You know, there are days I am very happy I am on a municipal water system.

joe

As already mentioned, this topic comes up all the time. I try and contribute as best I can. In my day job, I am the technical person for the liquid waste (ie septic tank) program for the New Mexico Environment Dept. It is my job to answer question such as this. I wish I had some direct studies to quote instead of all these anecdotal stories.

What I will say is, it will really depend on the receiving environment. We are presently investigating a private well located on a 3 acre lot that is grossly contaminated with TDS (total dissolved solids) to the point where the well is unusable. The culprit is waste from the water softener. There is also elevated nitrogen, probably from the septic system. The main problem for this lot is fractured bedrock. Lot size is large enough, soils are adequate but contamination still occurred. The discharge entered a fracture in the bedrock and ran directly to the well.

From the regulatory side, photographic waste is classified as household hazardous waste. Municipalities have restrictions on discharging this waste to their central sewer system.

Do the chemicals neutralize in the septic tank. I don't know. It was said above that some will react with the hydrogen sulfide gas. The gas is formed in the air space above the liquid, not found in the liquid. Some say the chemicals with oxidize in the tank. The tank is anaerobic, no oxygen. A little is OK. It does not take much of certain compounds to render a water source unusable.

The overpowering thought to keep in mind is: What is discharged to your septic tank will eventually get to the ground water and probably in the next closest well down gradient.

Brian

I don't have a darkroom, but for my tank processed B/W chemicals, I simply pour everything into an old plastic coffee container, then place it in the backyard and let it evaporate.

I remain pretty fickle about what I allow into my septic system.

Bill,

If you will be near a school, college or lab that still has darkrooms they may consider taking your fixer and running it through their silver recovery unit for environmental reasons. University of Akron has done that for me for the last three years while I took photo courses.

This fall I switched to Cleveland State University and have not tried to get that permission. I got a five gallon pail with a lid and a bag of steel wool to try the above remedy. Our kids are gone and it is just two of us using a septic system planned for four. We will see how it works out.

John Powers

http://www.itronics.com/

you might be close enough to them that they will take your chemisty.

good luck!
john

I found information regarding how to deal with chemicals in the darkroom. I am not sure it would be legal to reproduce the info here, however, I have included the link and when you go to it, a PDF file will download regarding Pin Hole photography.

On page 39, the author, Jim Kosinski, Wright Center for Science Education, Tufts University explains a very simple & safe solution.

I also came across info on commercial silver recovery outfits, starting at $79 for dentist which has similar data.

The solution on page 39 would be far less expensive for the home darkroom.

I will put this into use because I know any damage done by improper use may not show up in my life time or be easily detectable as to the source.

Regardless, do it right and you do it once.

The link:
http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_cent... on septic systems for hobbyist photographer"

When I put in my darkroom, my town found out (they require building permits for everything except painting in most towns in Mass). They said (despite seeing the chemistry info and projected amounts) that I had to get a contract with a disposal company. So, I have a 16 gallon waste container that takes me about 8-10 months to fill and costs me about $125 each time I have it switched out. If the town ever asks, I have the receipts.

The amount of actual chemical that would be going down the drain is very small. With most, you're taking the stock and diluting it 1:9 to start with. The stock isn't straight chemicals either - it has a fair amount of water. I think I remember reading that some types of developers encourage bacterial growth (which septic systems would like).

winger said:

When I put in my darkroom, my town found out (they require building permits for everything except painting in most towns in Mass). They said (despite seeing the chemistry info and projected amounts) that I had to get a contract with a disposal company.

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Unfortunately, the people in government are not the best or brightest. That is why they are in government rather than some really meaningful job.

Folks-
I turn my used fixer into a local photo lab, free of charge. Evidently they recycle it and cover the cost of the service that way.
Selenium toner, which I use very little of, goes to the hazardous waste pickup. Developer, stop, and wash aid are mixed and dumped down the drain.
While I don't have any scientific evidence that says this is safe for my septic system or groundwater, there does seem to be a fair amount of "tribal knowlege" that says it's no more harmful than household cleaning agents, etc.
It shure would be nice to be able to find more concrete information online though.