B&H not shipping chemicals anymore?

Ozxplorer · Dec 13, 2016

mgb74 said:
I'm very interested in how you know there's a silent majority and how you know such a large group is changing their shopping behavior.

Simple really... Any half smart person will deduce from the statistical analysis you offered...

mgb74 said:
There are over 80,000 apug members. There are (as I write this) over 1,400 members online right now. So let's assume 4,200 active members (and that's probably very conservative). Of those 4,200 active members, 3 are responsible for 20% of the negative comments in this thread. It's my guess that 10-12 are responsible for nearly all

that if 10-12 members (0.35% of active membership) are responsible for nearly all comment then the balance of members not participating in this thread represents some 99.65% of the active membership!

This being the case, it is also reasonable to deduce that of the above 99.65% group of active members who are both active darkroom workers and B&H customers...

mgb74 said:
that this....silent majority have already taken steps to change their shopping behavior.

will, if B&H is no longer shipping some or all of their darkroom consumables, then this majority of active members who would normally have sourced their requirements from B&H will need to look for alternate suppliers willing and capable of delivery. To the extent this group have already done so is an unknown.

QED! There is a silent majority of active members some of whom have already been forced as the result of a B&H "mistake" or service failure to change their shopping behaviour!

Fred

Ozxplorer · Dec 13, 2016

@Sirius Glass
@Leigh B

Gentlemen, I look forward to reading your analysis of the situation in respect of the previous post - bearing in mind that no one person is speaking for or against the silent majority in this thread. It appears as usual that it is up to the few to speak out on matters of interest to them (dare I say others?) while the snipes make sport of shooting the messenger rather than involve themselves to seek resolution of the issue at hand! Fred

Mark Tate · Dec 13, 2016

I find it hard to get a lot of things from B&H, being in Australia they do not ship any chemicals at all for as long as I can remember, I can see how it would be a problem for international air mail to transport some chemicals I do not see why it would be a problem within the US.
Getting chemicals here in Australia can be a nightmare to say the least but at least for know I am having no trouble getting what I need from Fotoimpex in Germany, they could send me some liquid developer AdotechIII ok but they could not send me a powder C-41 kit however I have been able to get C-41 chemicals from Russia just fine.
Luckily I can still get common chemicals like fixer in Australia ok but even then it is still mail order at a premium price plus postage.

I still get most of my film and other odd things like filters from B&H though, it is half the price and gets to me faster than what I can get it for in Australia.

AgX · Dec 14, 2016

Leigh B said:
Any reputable company I've dealt with would take special note of a negative comment by ONE customer.
They would make a serious effort to address the issue and correct the problem

I would be happy if we had such companies in Germany.

mgb74 · Dec 14, 2016

Ozxplorer said:
Simple really... Any half smart person will deduce from the statistical analysis you offered...

that if 10-12 members (3.5% of active membership) are responsible for nearly all comment then the balance of members not participating in this thread represents some 96.5% of the active membership!

This being the case, it is also reasonable to deduce that of the above 96.5% group of active members who are both active darkroom workers and B&H customers...

that, if B&H is no longer shipping some or all of their darkroom consumables then the majority of active members who would normally have sourced their requirements from B&H will need to look for alternate suppliers willing and capable of delivery. To the extent this group have already done so is an unknown.

QED! There is a silent majority of active members some of whom have already been forced as the result of a B&H "mistake" or service failure to change their shopping behaviour!

Fred

First, 10-12 of 4,200 active members is less than 0.3%, not 3.5%.

But the broader issue is that you, nor I, nor likely anyone on this forum know what the majority (silent or otherwise) think or plan to do. Yet you said, speaking of the "silent majority", that "This group have already taken steps to change their shopping behaviour.". I questioned how you know that.

Now you say "a silent majority of active members some of whom". A meaningless construct since "some" of a silent majority could be significant or it could be just one person. Strip away the sophistry, and what you now say is that because B&H now longer ships some chemicals, some customers have been forced to change their shopping behavior. True, but an entirely different concept than your having knowledge of, and speaking for, a silent majority.

As I look at the list of chemicals that B&H offers, I see relatively few that are available in store but not for shipping. It would be instructive to find out what specific chemicals that they regularly use and have been effected by the recent change. I'll ask in a separate post.

brofkand · Dec 14, 2016

Adorama is on backorder on a lot of the chemistry they sell. Coincidentally, the list of backordered items at Adorama and "in-store pickup" items at B&H align quite neatly.

This is the problem with suddenly losing a supplier. Adorama knows how much D-76 they usually sell. Now that B&H is out of the running, they have to figure out their new normal to reduce backorder situations. My advice to APUGers is to stock up now so that you won't be stuck without your chemistry while Adorama figures out their new normal stock level.

faberryman · Dec 14, 2016

mgb74 said:
As I look at the list of chemicals that B&H offers, I see relatively few that are available in store but not for shipping.

They went from shipping everything, to shipping nothing, to slowing adding back products they will ship, all of which is impossible to square with anything B&H management spokesperson Henry Posner (Henryp) has said here and elsewhere. Who knows what they will be shipping tomorrow. It is good advice to stock up from whichever supplier you chose to do business with. Every film photographer should have his own Strategic Dektol Reserve in his basement.

Hatchetman · Dec 14, 2016

Photographer's Formulary. I've bought a couple items from them in the past. Seemed to work fine. Possible alternative for a broad range of chemical needs?

http://stores.photoformulary.com/

Sal Santamaura · Dec 14, 2016

faberryman said:
They went from shipping everything, to shipping nothing...

That is incorrect. It has been years since B&H "shipped everything" of the photo chemicals it offered. There was a subset which it listed as "Store pickup only." A small subset, to be sure, but it nonetheless existed. A couple of weeks before the recent upheaval, for example, I ordered Photoflo 200 from Freestyle because B&H wouldn't ship it. There was no change in the status of that product at B&H since I last had to purchase a 16 oz. bottle at a (since-closed) local shop five or more years ago.

Rodinal in all its various names is another chemical I recall B&H being unwilling to ship for a long time. There were others as well.

mgb74 · Dec 14, 2016

With all the fuss, I thought it might be helpful to understand exactly which chemicals we typically use and are not currently being shipped by B&H. For me, it's just D-76 (as HC-110 has not been eligible for shipping by B&H for quite some time). Others?

Born2Late · Dec 14, 2016

I just looked at the B&H chemical list and it sure looks to me that a lot more are special order. It makes me wonder if they aren't planning to drop ship most of them.

faberryman · Dec 14, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
That is incorrect. It has been years since B&H "shipped everything" of the photo chemicals it offered.

You are correct. There were a couple of exceptions. I should have said virtually everything.

DREW WILEY · Dec 14, 2016

Formulary is an excellent source for photo chemicals as well as their own branded fixers, toners, and developers, some of which are now carried by
retail stores, including the remaining large camera store down the street here, as well as by Freestyle. But even they have certain restrictions, requiring forms before shipping you certain things, in this case, due to DEA monitoring to certify legitimacy of use. I was amazed at what kinds of
photo chemicals potentially end up getting smoked or injected. How many brain cells does one have to begin with to do that kind of thing, just for the fun of destroying the few remaining cells?

faberryman · Dec 14, 2016

The DEA Authorized Buyer Form only requires that you tell them if you are a reseller, list the formula you are using the chemical for, and provide a scanned photo I.D. like a drivers license, so it is not onerous for the buyer. I am sure Photographer's Formulary has to keep the forms for a certain period of time for Federal inspection, so it is a bit of a nuisance for them. One such chemical is hydrocloric acid, which, once they receive the form, they will happily ship to you via UPS Ground.

DREW WILEY · Dec 14, 2016

Not quite that simple. There is a very long list of chemicals where all the purchasing history potentially gets audited. Fairly easy for us to get onto
their file as legit photographic users. The DEA of course searches for high-volume buyers with no hypothetical need for sheer volume, which of course
might get spread over multiple supply sources. But DEA, Homeland Security, and the FBI are now all linked with regard to data bases, so anything
potentially pharmaceutical could get reclassified by any participant agency. There are some much bigger headaches to the seller than previously to
get started; but if there's no suspected abuse, sailing should be reasonably smooth thereafter until another sea change. This has nothing to do with
being a reseller. That's different. You can't even walk into a drugstore these days to buy cold pills without filling out a form and showing ID.

faberryman · Dec 14, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
Not quite that simple.

Actually it is. I fill out the form, e-mail them a scan of my drivers license, and they ship me the stuff.

DREW WILEY · Dec 14, 2016

Gosh you are out of your league once again. It all depends on what you are specifically buying and how much. Red flags aren't likely to go up over
common darkroom ingredients; but there are some alt process chemicals that have found their way into dopers lungs etc. and that might need more
information. I could go into this quite a bit from a professional viewpoint, because I'm not only surrounded by pharmaceutical manufacturers but have
family members with this kind of licensing, and believe me, it's a LOT of paperwork and annual fees. So if someone starts to abuse some chemical hitherto unknown to give a high, and it suddenly becomes the next version of "bath salts" or whatever, with kids dropping dead from it, the sales classification could instantly change. As a specific example, chromium, vanadium, and mercury salts are being smoked, though mostly in Europe, and that means such people are obviously either an insane habit or will soon go insane. Combine that with ordinary hazmat issues in certain cases, and
things can either get complicated or dry up outright. I fully expect that to happen here in the US if it follows EU protocols already in effect.

faberryman · Dec 14, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
Gosh you are out of your league once again.

No, just like everyone here, I am purchasing chemicals for photographic purposes. I fill out the form, e-mail Photographic Formulary a scan of my drivers license, and they ship me the stuff. It is not complicated; it is simple.

Now, if the Earth were struck by a rogue comet, that would be an entirely different matter.

DREW WILEY · Dec 14, 2016

There are thousands and thousands of kinds of chemicals, and five Federal agencies involved. But since you presume seem to know it all already, you should have run for President yourself.

Sixbysixjan · Dec 15, 2016

Hope I'm not resurrecting a Zombie thread here....

I took delivery of some items I ordered from B&H a while ago today. The order included Dektol and Xtol (both in powdered mix-it-yourself format). I could NOT order fixer in liquid form, was forced to order some of the new-fangled Kodak dry-powder-mix-it-yourself fixer (probably been around forever, I just don't recall using it 30 years ago). FTM I could not order ANYTHING in liquid form... Which I sort of understand considering the mayhem it probably will cause if a container somehow opens in transit. Heck, people are so darn sensitive about anything with a chemistry lab -sounding name, I'm very happy that at least I could get the developer.

DREW WILEY said:
...So if someone starts to abuse some chemical hitherto unknown to give a high, and it suddenly becomes the next version of "bath salts" or whatever, with kids dropping dead from it, the sales classification could instantly change....

- Funny you should mention that, a Fireman friend of mine told me the other day about how many kids they have to rescue yearly because of the kids drinking / eating the liquid soap found at gas stations washrooms (toilets) - because it contains a certain amount of alcohol. I was / still am baffled by this, it sounds darn nauseating.

DREW WILEY · Dec 15, 2016

Means no such thing, except that you have no idea of the sum of regulations or realistic inconveniences which specifically apply in their case. There can be multiple layers of rules, even locally, and it is very difficult to juggle all these rules, applying both there and everywhere they might want to
potentially ship, without a dedicated person of staff going nuts trying to keep up with it all. But I do agree that chemistry is not their forte.

Sirius Glass · Dec 15, 2016

Ozxplorer said:
@Sirius Glass
@Leigh B

Gentlemen, I look forward to reading your analysis of the situation in respect of the previous post - bearing in mind that no one person is speaking for or against the silent majority in this thread. It appears as usual that it is up to the few to speak out on matters of interest to them (dare I say others?) while the snipes make sport of shooting the messenger rather than involve themselves to seek resolution of the issue at hand! Fred

"silent majority" in the US has some very negative political overtones and innuendos implying that the speaker was making statements out of whole cloth and fabricating reality out of nothing factual. Hence the strong push back on the use of the phrase.

faberryman · Dec 15, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
But I do agree that chemistry is not their forte.

It was; it just hasn't been since 11/22/2016.

DREW WILEY · Dec 15, 2016

Gosh, it was thaaaaat easy, and this whole fun rant was for nothing?

DWThomas · Dec 15, 2016

Well the Brown Truck of Happiness delivered a new video monitor today, so they still ship some things -- by UPS ground!

B&H not shipping chemicals anymore?

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