Azo and Kodachrome, it does not make sense to me.

Captain_joe6 · Nov 21, 2007

Another avenue to consider is that, in light of the new Bergger deal, Harmann offers coating services.

I've talked with Simon a bit about the in's and out's of a limited coating run, and, keeping to myself the things he asked me to keep to myself, to do such a thing would be complicated from many angles.

-Patrick

Davesw · Nov 21, 2007

Kodak has every right to discontinue any products they wish. I am glad that they still have many traditional products available.
I just dont understand how they could eliminate all B/W paper and still sell super 8 movie film! that one I just dont understand anyone know the story?

cahayapemburu · Nov 21, 2007

I thought Azo remained in production as long as it did maybe because it keeps so well. I can't imagine there are many contact printers around, or among that group a significant number use Azo, or among that group, many who use it in large quantities. It's sort of miraculous that it lasted as long as it did. I think Kodak should be credited for supporting a vanishing market. I personally wish Azo users would shift their support to another niche product that hangs by a thread, namely Centennial P.O.P. It's not Azo, but it shares some attributes, and has many charms all its own, and best of all, it's still in production. If you're a contact printer missing Azo, and don't want to coat your own papers for Platinum, or one of PE's emulsions, give P.O.P. a try. If you've never seen the work of D.R. Cowles, you might be surprised at the creative potential of this material.

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2007

Davesw said:
Kodak has every right to discontinue any products they wish. I am glad that they still have many traditional products available.
I just dont understand how they could eliminate all B/W paper and still sell super 8 movie film! that one I just dont understand anyone know the story?

Super 8 movie is used by a lot of colleges teaching true cinematography. Also a lot of people use it for special purpose MP films.

PE

Tim Boehm · Nov 21, 2007

I called Chicago Albumen Works after the announced Kentmere acquisition. They said the Centennial P.O.P. would continue to be made. I assume Kentmere had a contract(s) with whomever (CAW?) to produce the paper, and that Harman assumed those obligations. However, I suspect those types of contracts provide for an "easy out" when economic conditions are good.

Tim Boehm · Nov 21, 2007

sorry, I meant "when economic conditions aren't good."

cahayapemburu · Nov 21, 2007

As far as I know, Centennial POP is the only FB silver chloride contact printing paper currently in production in the US or EU. Is that right? If that's true, and even if there is another, I don't understand why this product doesn't seem to have the support from contact printers that Azo did/does. I understand that a PO paper is different from a DO paper, but I can't believe that accounts for the difference in poularity when Platinum/Palladium printing seems more popular than POP, which is factory coated. For myself, the POP process is the very essence of contact printing, but I'm sure Azo printers feel the same way about that process. It is sad to lose a material we've come to know and love, and if we lose POP, I'll have to learn to love a new material, whether it's a commercially made product, or a hand coated process.

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2007

POP is slower, has a fixed contrast, is slower than Azo and has a different tonality. This is good or bad depending on your POV.

I say we leave this to the users preferences.

PE

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 21, 2007

POP is beautiful, but I think people who prefer Azo generally prefer the more neutral tone.

cahayapemburu · Nov 21, 2007

Preferring Azo is fine and well, but it's no longer in production. Eventually, existing stocks will be depleted, and Azo printers will be forced to look elsewhere for their materials. If POP is not supported in the marketplace, it too will be discontinued, and contact printers will be left with hand coated processes, or projection papers. Comparing POP to Azo is not the point, comparing POP to available alternatives is.

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2007

Well, the fact that I have been making an Azo type paper for 2 years now, and it takes me 1 hour or less to make enough emulsion to coat over 100 sheets must mean something. So an Azo type paper is an alternative.

What we need is someone to make it.

PE

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 21, 2007

I prefer albumen to silver gelatin POP, so I don't see myself becoming a big POP user any time soon, but I would certainly encourage people to try POP.

Alex Hawley · Nov 21, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
- but I would certainly encourage people to try POP.

That idea came my way just this week. I've been doing some research, but info seems scarce. I'm not sure I like the reddish tone, but it does seem to have its own beauty. Problem is, what guarantee does anyone have that POP will stay in production?

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2007

David;

All should be tried and the 'artist' should select what suits his style.

PE

JLP · Nov 21, 2007

Well, the fact that I have been making an Azo type paper for 2 years now, and it takes me 1 hour or less to make enough emulsion to coat over 100 sheets must mean something. So an Azo type paper is an alternative.

What we need is someone to make it.

PE

And, Ron it would be such a waste if all your hard work would not be taken one step further and into production.
I hope that M&P will be in a position to post something about the latest batch of Lodima paper soon, (Michael wrote in the middle of December)
M&P's work to bring the Lodima paper to it's final release really needs to be given a little more patience. It would be a mistake to try to bring another Silver Chloride paper on the market now. There is not enough sale for two competing papers,barely enough for one.
If the Lodima paper should be a failure which i really don't hope it will be, Ron's work should get all the support that it can get to be brought into production.
I believe (Without any 6 sigma process to support) that there are more contact printers today than a few years ago.

jan

Photo Engineer · Nov 21, 2007

M&P, should they bring the Lodima to fruition, will achieve it with no connection to my work.

PE

JLP · Nov 21, 2007

Ron, I think most on this forum are aware of that. All i am trying to say is that it would not benefit anybody if two Silver Chloride papers where to be manufactured at the same time. At least with the current amount of anticipated sale.

jan

JLP · Nov 21, 2007

Should add to my previous post that i don't know how much the total investment in your Silver Chloride paper is but it seems that there is a considerable amount invested in the Lodima paper from many of this forums members that could be lost if the project fails.
In the end i hope that there will be a market for both yours and the Lodima paper.
My desire to see this happen is solely based on my respect for your contribution and awesome knowledge about EK and all the processes and M&P's hard work to make a paper they truly love to print on and feel that should be available to other contact printers.

jan

roteague · Nov 22, 2007

JLP said:
Should add to my previous post that i don't know how much the total investment in your Silver Chloride paper is but it seems that there is a considerable amount invested in the Lodima paper from many of this forums members that could be lost if the project fails.

I don't know the backend story, but perhaps if they had listened to PE a bit more, or even made him part of the project, it would be in production now. Michael and Paula are nice people, but I can't help them myself - I don't shoot B&W - but, I wish them the best.

It seems to me that people should use whatever processes they have available, while they have them, and let the future take care of itself. No one knows if film, or anything else will last very long - we may all be shooting digital in 5 years. I plan on shooting as much Velvia, 35mm, 120 and 4x5 as I can, as long as I can.

cahayapemburu · Nov 22, 2007

I am a long time user of POP, and I can tell you that it takes more than a cursory trial to reveal the full potential of this material. The reddish tone of POP is no more inevitable than the greenish tone of Azo developed in Dektol. POP is a wonderfully expressive material, with a rich palette of colors to be exploited. POP is a very long scale, self masking paper that is very responsive to toning, and anyone who learns to exploit these characteristics will be well rewarded. Surely, some printers will choose to coat their own papers with this or that sensitive material, but some number will always opt for a commercially made product, while they last.

JLP · Nov 22, 2007

Robert, i totally agree with you.
But, at this time it will not benefit anybody (Long term) to compete with two silver chloride papers, none of them on the marked so far.
If the M&P project fails and i believe we will know in a couple of months i also believe that there is a viable alternative which perhaps should have been the first and only. Don't know enough to throw any conclusions in here but i have a lot of confidence in Ron's knowledge and his ability to pull it off to say that it would be a shame for anybody with an coating line not to show up here and make a coment.

jan

Davesw · Nov 22, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Super 8 movie is used by a lot of colleges teaching true cinematography. Also a lot of people use it for special purpose MP films.

PE

I can see that point. Super 8 is a lot cheaper to teach with than 16 mm or super 16. I just thought the same institutions would have had an equal demand for quality B/W paper. I would like to think there are some old hands at Kodak in a position to say: "Others still make paper ,but if we abandon 8mm who will fill that need ?" I work for a public co. and I actually see that sentiment win the day once and a great while.

chrisf · Nov 22, 2007

Fuji's contact paper was mentioned earlier in this thread which I believe is RC based. I looked into this a while ago so my memory on this might be incorrect.

P.E. do you have any idea of the cost to produce a master roll of single weight Azo type paper on a contract basis?

Photo Engineer · Nov 22, 2007

From a dead start, to production, it would cost between $50,000 and $100,000 to produce the first master roll from an existing facility. After that the cost would be for paper, silver and labor. That is my guess.

My Azo type paper formula gives a black tone in Dektol and in the M&P developer both.

It seems like everyone wants the formula. You would be surprised at the type of notes I get like this "Sorry I cant make your workshop but would you be kind enough to email me all of your formulas?" Or, "I beg you to send me a package of your grade 2 Azo type paper".

I cannot afford to give the formula away, and I have asked my students not to publish it until I do myself. I don't make the paper for sale or give away, but I do put it out for evaluation with selected people. So far, 50% (1 out of 2) have actually tested the paper and responded to me. I have about 3 more samples to send out and that will be it for evaluation.

See Alex Hawley's review here. You should see the prints in person. He has been kind enough to send me a set. My students have a hard time picking out the hand coated paper.

PE

Alex Hawley · Nov 22, 2007

To reiterate, Ron's silver chloride emulsion works and works very well. I've decided to include one of the prints I have made on it in the traveling portfolio so that it will be seen first-hand by several knowledgeable people.

The other attractive aspect of this is that one is not limited to the type of paper that a manufacturer uses. I've printed on coated sheets of strathmore and watercolor paper in addition to the traditional baryta. The print I send along will be on one of these non-traditional papers.

Truthfully, the only reason I haven't started coating my own is that I don't have the room space to devote to it. That may change in the coming year.

Azo and Kodachrome, it does not make sense to me.

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