Awakening of Fuji: Choosefilm Relaunch

Film-Niko

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Hi Tom,


sorry to say, but that is not the way markets work.
Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Foma, Freestyle, Adox, Maco and all the others thougt that intelligent customers will figure out film for themselves.
But what happened? They did not, at least not in sufficient numbers, therfore the falling sales numbers.
If digital companies are flooding the markets and the consumers with their marketing, that digital is always better than film and that film is of the past and dead and that you can't buy film anymore and so on....
and at the same time film manufacturers and distributers stopped marketing for film than it is obvious in which direction the market will go.

You have to raise interest in film by modern and effective marketing strategies if you will keep film at a healthy level.

Tom Kershaw said:
To counter your list, for starters see: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/aboutus/page.asp?n=140
and: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/filmsIndex.jhtml?pq-path=13319

Tom
Click to expand...

I love Ilford and Kodak products, but these tiny sites are not at all an example for good film marketing.
If experienced photographers, which have used film and digital, can create a site with lots of information and very good reasons for film use like this

http://www.warum-analog.aphog.de/ (if you print all sections you get more than 10 pages, click on the sections above)

than it should be possible for a film manufacturer to get more information and more good reasons for film use than these few sentences on the Ilford or Kodak site.
 

Film-Niko

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Dear Matt,

people who have started digital sometimes hear about film. They asked themselves "why should I use film". They may think "oh, a film manufacturer or a film distributor will tell me".
Then they look at the manufacturers sites and they find (almost) nothing. At least not enough to be convinced to try film.
If customers are coming to you, why not give them help on your website?
"Good reasons to shoot film"
"What makes film so unique"
"Why can film succesfully supplement your digital shooting"
"Why a digital only strategy has severe disadvantages"

....and so on.

Why not a website helping beginners in film, which have started digital?

If you as a film distributor would offer this, you would get much, much more business!!

Or why not starting workshops for film beginners (lomography for example is exactly doing this very successfully at their expanding stores worldwide)

You want to buy film. Therefore you have to do marketing for film. You are in charge.
Stop complaining about Fuji. Start marketing action for film by yourself.

The same is of course valid for Freestyle, Fotoimpex, Maco, digitaltruth, labo-argentique and all other distributors committed to film.


I am convinced that you are wrong with this. Lomography has started 19 years ago, and their success is rapidly growing.
They have doubled their gallery stores in only one and a half year. The speed of opening new stores is increasing.
Last year they had 20.000 fans on facebook, now they have more than 206.000.
So it is obvious that they satisfy the majority of their customers.

Of course their products are vastly overpriced. It's a chance for you to get new customers, who love this low fidelity photography style with Holgas and Dianas, but don't want to buy at high prices.

But what you, all other film distributors and manufacturers can learn from them is new and effective marketing with new marketing methods. For example using the chances of internet marketing. For example:
- create a feel of community
- create a feel of fun connected to film use
- use the chances of the internet, grow your community by social networks
- create helpful videos for film usage and publish it on youtube and vimeo, tips and tricks presented by online films
- start workshops for film beginners, online and on location at your shop
- write articles about film and publish it on your website
- start film photo contests

These are only some examples what LSI has succesfully done and can be done as well by others to promote film use.

Or have a look here, what another european distributor is doing:

Dead Link Removed

Not sufficient yet, but at least a first step in the right direction.

Matt, it is defintely the time to go in new directions for effective film marketing.
The time when doing a film ad in a photo print magazine was enough are long over now.
New times need new marketing.
And the Holga company and the Lomographic Society are definitely doing some things right. Otherwise they wouldn't be so extremely successful (by the way: they are opening the second lomography gallery store in London today).

Personally I am not interested in lomography or toy camera photography. It's not my style.
But I respect if others like it. And I respect the success of this movement, and I think concerning marketing film manufacturers and distributors can learn a lot from them.
 

Marco B

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The Essential Reference Guide for Filmmakers


To be honest, I don't think you have had a good enough look at Kodak's website. Yes, you are right Kodak's site is diluted with d******l bull shit, but if you care to look for it, there is still tons of info regarding film, see the Kodak Professional Film section of the Kodak site and its subpages.

And to answer most, if not all of the questions you suggested above, Kodak published a number of excellent PDF files about motion picture film, as part of a major free publication called "The Essential Reference Guide for Filmmakers", that I think are equally useful and interesting for us still photographers here on APUG. I found it at least a very interesting read. You can find it and the PDFs here:

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Publications/Film_Essentials/index.htm

And in terms of "inspirational" guidance, don't forget the "On Film" interviews with cinematographers using film on the same site:

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Publications/On_Film_Interviews/Throughout_the_Years/index.htm

And I never realized that the new "Inception" with Leonardo DiCaprio actually used film as one of its source materials for the production. I assumed it was all d*******l from start to finish...

And for some more "still-photographers-inspiration" , don't forget Kodak's film Video Podcasts with interviews with pro photographers shooting film:

Pro Imaging Podcasts

As you can see, Kodak does have most of the stuff you asked for online, and no, I am not related to Kodak in any way, except for shooting their film

Cheers,

Marco
 
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Film-Niko

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Dear Marco,

I know the Kodak film website very well.
Of course there is some information on the specifications of the Kodak Photo films.
But that is not the point.
There no marketing for photographic film as a medium.
There is nothing about why shooting film in a digital age.
There is nothing for photographers, who have started photography with digital, now hear that there is film as well and are now interested to know what film could offer, and why they should start shooting film.

There is a huge market potential: If you only get 2 or 3% of these photographers, who started digital, into (at least partly) shooting film, you have over a million new customers worldwide.

The Lomographic Society (LSI) has recognized that, and they make marketing for this new market, too.

If Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Foma, Lucky, Adox, Rollei-Film and all the film distributers would develop marketing strategies for this customer group, they could do a much better business.

I have worked for some years in strategic marketing, perhaps that is the reason the marketing failure of film manufacturers and distributors is so obvious for me.

It's a shame that a small 200 people company like the LSI is doing much, much more for film marketing as such companies like Kodak and Fuji, where still several thousands are working in the film departments, or Ilford with its 300 staff.
Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Foma.....should hire some marketing experts with fresh ideas and knowledge about new media marketing.

The LSI has proven that it is possible to get young people interested in film in a digital age.

Marco B said:
And to answer most, if not all of the questions you suggested above, Kodak published a number of excellent PDF files about motion picture film, .......

Cheers,

Marco
Click to expand...

Marco, I know all of these pdfs for motion picture film.

Why Kodak doesn't do something similar for photo film??
That is the fundamental question.

The main problem is, that young photographers who started digital and now are searching for informations about photo film will probably never find the pdfs on Kodak site. Because they are hidden, because the people don't connect motion picture film with photo film, and because the digital kids in most cases even don't know that the movies they are watching in cinema are mostly shot on film.
They think its all digital today.
Therefore they won't look for motion picture film on Kodaks website.

If you want people get interested in something, you have to go to their level, you have to go directly to them and show them. It must be easy for the people to get information.
In this regard the complicated and hidden Kodak Website (Fuji + Co are not better at all, often even worse) is an example how not to do.

@ Matt: I have given you the examples of aphog and ars-imago. Here are two further examples for internet marketing for film by distributers:

http://www.photophilia.at/
http://www.spuer-sinn.net/blog1/

Tiny steps, not sufficient yet, no question, but at least a beginning and a step in the right direction.
If you (and of course all other film distributors) start to supplement your shop with a website for film marketing, adressed at young digital photographers who are interested to know more about film and the reasons for shooting film, you can strenghten your business and significantly increasing your sales.
 

Lionel1972

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Hi Film-Niko,
I agree 200% to your analysis. I've been thinking the same after noticing the Lomography success.
If only Lomograghy would have chosen to promote Kodachrome.... !!! It might not have been extinct by now.
 

Marco B

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Film-Niko said:
Dear Marco,

I know the Kodak film website very well.
Of course there is some information on the specifications of the Kodak Photo films.
But that is not the point.
There no marketing for photographic film as a medium.
Click to expand...

Film-Niko, you start repeating yourself without real backup of the statements. Why is there "no marketing"? I think, with all the references I gave, there is plenty of material from Kodak celebrating and marketing film. Audio Podcasts and video interviews with celebrated and successful photographers and cinematographers, some good readable documentation about film (especially that Essential Reference Guide, that I totally agree should have been extended to still film as well) etc... Yes, Kodak failed yet to add proper sharing links to Facebook, MySpace, LinkedIn etc at some pages (the The Essential Reference Guide for Filmmakers webpage does have those sharing links though), but what else do you expect in terms of promotional material?

Just screaming hollow marketing slogans, like "Film is soooo good / better than digital", "Film is fun" or whatever, won't do the job IMO...

And seriously, I don't see the current market situation offering any real options for promoting film in the sense of having large scale - and hugely expensive - advertisement campaigns in magazines, on billboards, tv-commercials etc. It is bound to fail, as the current remaining market of photographers shooting film, even those in the Lomographic society, is for the most part composed of die-hard hobbyists, or artists, that for the most part don't give s**t about marketing crap...

Maybe it would be more effective if you - and others reading this thread - started using the new "digital age" options of sharing and pointing these resourceful links out on your Facebook, LinkedIn etc, instead of continuing to stress the fact that there is "not enough marketing"...

I am also not completely convinced about the long-term success of something like LSI. Yes, Lomo and other toy camera's can be great fun, but I think there is a strong "hype" effect in all this, like a pair of UGGs that will wear off soon... I seriously doubt if more than 5% of people who ever shot a plastic toy camera, will continue to shoot film the coming decades, as long as film survives, while those who against all odds in recent years made a conscious decision to invest hundreds to thousand of euros in MF or LF equipment and setup a proper darkroom, likely will...

Also, the virtual extinction of cheap-and-easy 1-hour photo services, may be a blow to toy camera usage as well.

By the way, I do think what LSI is doing on their homepage, is good... but that aside, it still doesn't completely change the potential threads looming on the horizon for LSI too...

I DO fully agree the accessibility of the specific Kodak websites is sub-optimal to say the least. Kodak would do good to separate their digital site from the analog one. But than again, they are involved in a lot.


To be honest, I think these questions and remarks are a completely past station. If I were in a situation to have to promote film, I would NEVER, EVER do this by off-setting it against digital in any way. It is a lost cause trying to persuade digital photographers by some kind of "magical" property film would offer over digital. And I would certainly never use the word "should", as in your "they should start shooting film" as a means to convince them, that choice of words very much sounds like some "compulsory duty"...

Instead, I would maybe offer workshops to schools, so as to entice children for the tremendous fun of going into a darkroom and see paper develop under the influence of light and a few simple chemical baths, maybe in the form of the mobile darkroom that travels through France for exactly this purpose, and that has been referred to here on APUG in a couple of threads, and I think is one of the most beautiful and inspiring "film promotion" initiatives I have seen in a long time:

Dead Link Removed visiting schools to show children the "Dark Art"

Or to confront them with weird contraptions like my Tachihara 4x5, people absolutely love it each time they see me working with it, just to show and teach them there are "other ways" to create a photo, that they themselves may find more gratifying, like most if not all of us here on APUG, than sitting behind a computer screen 8 hours a day...
 
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Marco B

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Wauw, and in terms of fun and inspirational "film promotion" by the "old companies", this recent APUG thread regarding a conceptual new Ilford film packaging, certainly blows your socks off...:

Conceptual Ilford packaging award:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Wonder if it ever will make it to a market, but it certainly looks fantastic!
 
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Lionel1972

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The way I see things, when digital took over, film became suddlenly an inferior thing of the past in most people's mind, thus it became very uncool to shoot film. Marketing is not about facts, it's all about hype and being cool. Anything that tends to convey the message to the masses that film is way cool and hip is good for the film industry and film users in general.
But in this digital age, I believe there is a great opportunity for a new way for film to survive. There has been a lot of new comers to the photography hobby thanks for the popularity of DSLRs, and I'm certain a non-negligable portion of them would love to go further and discover or rediscover analog photography, especially in MF and LF, if only they could be convinced through efficient marketing that film is the next cool thing to upgrade to. If only 1% of all the DSLRs onwers on the planet would shoot 1 or 2 rolls of film per year I bet it would help film marking to stay profitable.
 

AgX

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The problem is that leaders of part of the film industry find film uncool themselves...
 

lovetodraw

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film is awesome

I did some analog film in the 90s, but I never knew much about it. Then nikon d70 came out and I was hooked. Then I start looking and reading about photography art history. Then I discovered that I did not like the look of digital. I never got along with nikon's nef files. When I discovered many fine art photographers I knew that one day in my life I would be brave and start shooting film.
I never understood to try to make a digital file look like film, but perhaps that is me. If I want the look of film then I shoot film. Why use for example nik's software to make an image look like tri-x if you can shoot the real thing.
The reason why I say this because there is hope. I went from digital to film (beginner) and I think many more people will follow when they realize what possibilities film can offer.

Also many camaras that were outreach in the past due to price have come down so more people can afford them to try it out.

About Fuji; pro S and Pro C in 120 format are not available anymore here in the US, as far I can tell. About a month ago it was listed as discontinued on B&H website.

Thanks for reading.
 

Lionel1972

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I'm afraid you are right on that point, that's why I wish Kodak would either sell their film division to someone who think it still has potential or start changing their mind set and make some room for film in their bigger promising digital future.
 

Brac

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Whatever one might think about Lomography, it has certainly introduced many people to using film, and one would hope that many of them go on to progress, if that's the right expression, beyond Lomography.

Meanwhile, in the UK, I think we should be grateful to the pharmaceutical shop chain, Boots, who have hundreds of branches throughout the country. The great majority of those still have a range of films, on display, colour print & colour slide from Kodak & Fuji and their own brand too, and black & white film from Ilford and often Kodak. They usually have APS size too, and carried Polaroid and 110 films until they went off the market. Of course the prices are much higher than suppliers such as Ag Photographic charge, but Boots are continuing to give film a High Street presence. Compare this with Jessops, who are supposed to be primarily a photographic chain, but who seem embarrased about selling film these days.
 

Steve Smith

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In fact, they often have a better stock of film than Jessops, an alleged photographic chain of shops.


Steve.
 

michaelbsc

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Here in the US I have advocated - and practiced myself - that we should buy a roll of Tri-X from CVS stores about once a month.

Yes, it is overpriced. But it isn't that much, and it tickles the inventory.
 

kb3lms

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Absolutely agreed about CVS. They seem to be the only place around my house that has any selection at all, and not even all the stores, just a few. Occasionally, we will get a "$5 off your purchase of $XX" coupons when picking up prescriptions. We don't normally buy anything else at CVS so I always blow those coupons on TriX. A few other people seem to be doing the same cause the Tri-X inventory seems to keep turning over. The local CVS also started carrying BW400CN again, which they have not had in years. That seems to turn over, too. Color film they always have a small pile so it's hard to tell.

In another note for the "film isn't quite dead yet" department (aka, "almost feels like a resurgence"), my wife would like to have her early 80's Canon Snappy 50 put back into operation - it needs the back cover replaced as the plastic catch broke off. She tried using one of our daughter's Nikon digicams and couldn't stand it. So I went on fleaBay and found another to either replace it or scavenge the back. Guess what? I had to fight off people bidding on this thing. Not that I ended up paying any high price for it but two years ago you couldn't give P&S film cameras away at all and now I have to bid against people? (Two years ago I picked up a really nice Pentax P&S for 99 cents.) Somebody wants them.

Reminds me of the HP TV digicam commercial a few years ago - "where are the pictures"? I think people, older people anyway, are really starting to miss the (real) pictures.
 
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