Autochrome Lumiere - San Francisco Bay Area

greencatphoto · Feb 18, 2011

Hello all,

As the title of the message suggests I am looking for photographers based in the San Francisco Bay Area working with the Autochrome Lumiere process. If you happen to be such a person and have a minute to spare feel free to let it be known.

Thank you photography enthusiasts.

Hopeful,

Greencatphoto

Ian Grant · Feb 18, 2011

There's no-one anywhere still using the Autochrome process, it's proved impossible so far to replicate the process which disappeared in the 1940's.

The vestiges of the Lumiere company still exist, they are the Ilford distributors in France, and the old Lumier factory was bought by Ciba and then became anIlford factory before final closure.

Ian

holmburgers · Feb 18, 2011

Like Ian said, no one is using Autochromes because any plates that still exist would be nearly 100 years old.

Screen-plate photography in general is being practiced, or rather, experimented with. This post is rather large and sprawling, but the general idea can be had -> (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I'd love to know about your interest in them however.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

There are two persons who produces their autochrome plates , one from Mexico 93 years old and a French man. If you surf in the forums well , you will find recipes also.
Its not impossible , people are love to talk about it or dream about it but lazy to mix starch to dye and put on a glass plate.

holmburgers · Feb 18, 2011

http://www.autochromes.fr/english/last.html

Ian Grant · Feb 18, 2011

holmburgers said:
http://www.autochromes.fr/english/last.html

So far they aren't close, far too many defects.

But the process continued into the 1940's, I have Lumiere adverts for Autochrome plates in 1939 as well as the screen roll & cut film versions Lumicolor and Filmcolor. In addition I worked with a grandson of one of the founders back in the mid 1970's and still see him sporadically.

The basis of Autochrome is easy but a secret of the manufacturing technique is lost or missing. It's interesting that in 1910 they had competitors but they all fell away only Autochrome until later funicular screens came along.

Ian

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

Yes , there may be defects but this is natural so the production isnt done at a factory. And I liked the appereance and the colors of modern one also. Mexican man was different and excellent also.

Well today , You can get this photographs with lowering saturation , playing with colors , adding noise and merging with a old paper or textile scan picture.

I think if we want to drop in a faraway distance appereance , you can do it with picnik.com also. I think We must develop a modern art theory to this fashion taken there , done there. With writing more and more , I am finding digital retouching sensable. I am againt digital cameras , they are terrible but if retouching can be done within classical art limits or 1970s British new romanticism Ian , it is good.

removed account4 · Feb 18, 2011

htmlguru here on apug was doing his best to recreate autochromes
i don't know if he managed though ...

holmburgers · Feb 18, 2011

I believe he settled upon ink-jet screens, which he posted on that thread above should someone wish to use it. Not to toot my own horn, but my method is probably the easiest way to do it, and despite having only 1 go at it so far, it was more promising than the scan might suggest. In person, the colors are very rich and "volumptuous". I hope to have more to show in the near future.

Also, Stephen Frizza's example was pretty dang good... blew mine out of the water. And his was just ink-jet screens. That's probably easier in reality, if you have good access to a suitable printer.

I think that dying 3 batches of gelatin, allowing these to dry and then crushing it into a powder, mixing the 3 batches, coating on a plate, and then heating to the point that they melt slightly, varnishing, and then coating with a panchromatic emulsion might work. That is, if you wanted to do it a more old-fashioned way.

The look of autochromes is worth pursuing; they're just gorgeous when done well.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

Chris ,

If you coat very very thin , that would be an excellent idea. But intersections , step each color on other color and size of the dots might be well thinked.

Umut

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2011

For up-to-date information, I suggest contacting George Eastman House and talk to Mark Osterman. He has talked to or visited several of these individuals trying to recreate Autochromes. He is a process historian and is quite well versed in all aspects of Autochrome.

PE

holmburgers · Feb 18, 2011

Yeah, it would be tough. I guess that the single-layer coating, whether it's starch or gelatin is probably the hardest part in the production.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

Chris ,

Someone had been posted a idea , to coat the glass with transparent clear epoxy and than dip in to the powder and than blow the excess and your thin layer is ready. But the same time toning the gelatin right may be important also. My museum post covers all needs and research results on starch toning. You dont need to invent this again and again , I think process is ready and wait a applicator.

Pressing the glass for pressing the starch grains. I think We only could not get any idea on this.
You can call or write to Corning glass and museum and get their idea . May be PE s reference Mr. Osterman helps you.

May be coating a very thin layer of transparent plastic and than press with homemade hand press , this is like invention of Kodak , plastic autochrome

Umut

holmburgers · Feb 18, 2011

I like the idea of a hand press. I might also contact a guy over at IPI who knows Bertrand Lavedrine. He seemed to think that Mssr. Lavedrine successfully made autochromes using the original equipment, which he salvaged.

Then again... WAIT. I've got my own telechrome to perfect!!

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

Hand press can be an archimedes one , you know the armed forces , or a top screw one or hydraulic one.
Or you can press the autochrome under a hard plastic top and with your car wheel lol.
Before this , you must see the behavior of thin foil pressed under load , may be it streches too much.
I dont know how much pressure does it requires to flatten the starch grains. For single layer , it must not too much.
May be I can first press the grains and than coat them. I dont think even kodak every t grain does face the lens.

I liked the idea and start to make dye cost analysis and report.

Umut

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2011

Remember that Autochrome used 3 colors plus black to get the proper densities.

I guess what is confusing me somewhat is the desire to leap right to Autochromes without any knowledge of the emulsions needed for this. Nor any of the color and system engineering knowledge. The Lumiere Brothers did learn how to make good emulsions first or they could not have made a good product. They learned many things up front, before producing the final products we have seen and admired.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

PE ,

We had been discussed the emulsions , sensitizers . I had been sent sensitometry graphs and you said nothing come close to these graphs today.

I am listing dye prices and rose bengal used 2.6 gram per 100 ml water and used to make orange red color and 1 grams cost 50 euros , 5 grams cost 200 euros. This is the most expensive chemical acid red 94 involved.
It mixes with erythrosine 14.5 grams and tartrazine 19.7 gram. Tartrazine is 20 euros per 100 grams
All mix per 100 ml water and makes 300 ml dye.

And per 2.3 gram dye mix , it gets 3 grams of starch.

I think we could attach this screen to bw scanner sensor like a strip and use thousands times or attach to a 8 mm photograph camera and take 4000 pictures per 10 dollar roll and hand register , scan and use.

Its not impossible to caliber the chemical content of screen per emulsion or sensor when we have the sensitometry graphs , what do you think ?

Umut

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2011

It can be done. In fact, with what we know today an even better job can be done. But then, it would not be an Autochrome. So, the question then becomes "How authentic do you want it to be?"

And, another might be "Just where do you want to start?"

I'm adding in an edit more thoughts.

You see, an Autochrome was a coated dyed starch screen with 3 colors + black which was then rolled flat and coated with a "pan" sensitive emulsion to give a final integral material. This is "authentic". I could, of course, envision a number of improvements already mentioned by others, but the start of this paragraph embodies the entire material if one wants to authentically recreate Autochrome.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 18, 2011

Its like manufacturing the 1908 Rolls Royce with the same workers dresses or haircut , moustache or even same shaving knife. I want to be that authenthic

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2011

I've been thinking this over since the above.

You know that Dufay Color and Autochromes both look much like digital products and suffer from the same or similar defects. The most prominent defect is color aliasing. My experience with most people seeing Autochromes or Dufay Color is that they comment on how poor they really look upon examination, even though their first reaction is "beautiful" or "quaint". And, neither can be used effectively in 35mm format. They are best at MF or LF sizes and viewed from a distance.

Pixellization is so bad that you generally cannot print them without severe degradation!

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 19, 2011

PE ,

I am not interested in printing by myself. I can not afford lots of chemicals , enlargers and a Leica enlarger lens. And I want to keep everything light to my income and health and the environment. I saw how people , factories send the chemicals to sea here which I want a boat on it and I dont want to be the next guy who discharge to toilet liters of chemicals.

And I found that using 8 mm camera as photograph machine , a Leicina , is least effect to my income

So the solution must be built on that. I can build very small , 1 square centimeters wide autochrome filters for Leicina. Pressing , experimenting is easy and you can sell it at 35 mm size also. I dont need money , or trade or anything

Question , Do I need to attach it in front of lens or in front of film and remove , put on to the film and say what a colors !

APUG Gallery size scans are good for me , if people want to get a copy , I send the RAW.

I liked the autochromes at internet , no chance to see the original.

With 8 mm camera , you have 4600 autochromes per 10 minutes.

Umut

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2011

Umut;

I have serious doubts whether a motion picture Autochrome could be built. The screen must be attached to the film, and if it is not, then you need a screen for each frame due to jitter (play in the sprocket holes among other things). It must have perfect re-registration by some means.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 19, 2011

Ron ,

I am thinking to use single screen attached in front of film flow and for each frame , there would be a autochrome record.

Than you order a televise and get your scans.

Than you order a scan for the screen with museum quality and than Photoshop plug in register per frame and screen and merge it.

I think this is the movie autochrome with cheapest and fastest tools at hand.

Leica lens , tri x film and original autochrome screen. What else someone wants ?

I think photoshop plug in can be designed to match the film grain texture to screen grain texture automatically.

This is what I can think with these screens.

Umut

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2011

Well, the jitter will cause registration problems, and the smaller the format the smaller the screen size must be. And, of couse, this will not be authentic Autochrome unless you use a hand cranked motion picture camera and you are wearing a celluloid collar!

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Feb 19, 2011

Very funny

Autochrome Lumiere - San Francisco Bay Area

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