Autochrome, Kodachrome and home made high speed films

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

<img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/DarkroomExperimenter/kchrometest-thumb.jpg"></img>

aaarrrgh....how to post images properly?

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

The problem with exposing other color films selectively is that the sensitizing dyes are designed to wash out easily whereas in Kodachrome the sensitizing dyes must survive at least 2 development steps. Therefore, selective light re-exposure of Ektachrome or Fujichrome will probably not work. After the first developer, the films are no longer Green or Red sensitive, just Blue and UV.

As for the Rockland couplers, they are probably quite good but not up to the quality of the real things. IDK for sure. I have seen some of the colors, and they appear to be mixtures or rather poor as dyes. But, not having the real data, I cannot say. I imagine a fairly good Kodachrome type could be made, but as for the Ektachrome, probably not.

BTW, the Ektachrome reddish greens and etc, the false colors, are designed the way they are to reveal camoflaged items. It was developed to detect camoflage in WWII and then was extended to be used to detect diseased plants in forests and fields.

PE

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

Does anyone have pricing/availability data on real K14 chemistry? If I lived in Kansas I'd borrow some from dwaynes but the distance appears to be prohibitive.

Oh so the RED is magenta. Ha. That's good. Now I just have to figure out the proper blue-green to fill in for Cyan. Ok.

So I take C41 developer and enfuse it with couplers and bring the pH to 11 using something and then it should work? Hopefully? What did you use as your developer? Do I need to add half alcohol?

According to PE some of your staining was caused by couplers which were left in the film afterwards.

And lastly what did you use for re-exposures? Did you actually have the filters or use substitutes? Any idea how many Footcandle seconds or whatever the re-exposure requires?

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

thanks

re: sensitizing dyes...I was always curious about how the sensitizing dyes in B&W film work...I read a discussion somewhere online where people were debating if B&W film records useful color information

someone ( I think it was the guy who developed DR5, but not sure ) was insisting that it did, and that the DR5 process took advantage of that

which reminds me of this project:

http://www.pinholephotography.org/index.html

6 month long pinhole exposures onto B&W paper....color images are generated---but they just wildy overexpose the paper & scan the paper w/o any developing at all....they invert the image in photoshop and play with the colors

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

tiberiustibz said:
.

So I take C41 developer and enfuse it with couplers and bring the pH to 11 using something and then it should work? Hopefully? What did you use as your developer? Do I need to add half alcohol?

According to PE some of your staining was caused by couplers which were left in the film afterwards.

And lastly what did you use for re-exposures? Did you actually have the filters or use substitutes? Any idea how many Footcandle seconds or whatever the re-exposure requires?

I just added the couplers to C-41 developer....didn't do anything about ph

I used filters I had sitting around. Not sure what exactly, but I probably used gels from the free samples you get from companies like gamcolor, roscolux & Lee filters

don't remember what I used for a first developer...but I probably used D-76....IIRC PE had suggested I try D-19 which I have now

at the time I didn't know I needed to remove the remjet & was thus surprised when a lot of black gloopy stuff came out of the tak after first development

for 3rd re-exposure I just used a long long exposure to white light...hung the film up for a while...tossed it in the bathtub under water, etc

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

DarkroomExperimente said:
I just added the couplers to C-41 developer....didn't do anything about ph

I used filters I had sitting around. Not sure what exactly, but I probably used gels from the free samples you get from companies like gamcolor, roscolux & Lee filters

don't remember what I used for a first developer...but I probably used D-76....IIRC PE had suggested I try D-19 which I have now

at the time I didn't know I needed to remove the remjet & was thus surprised when a lot of black gloopy stuff came out of the tak after first development

for 3rd re-exposure I just used a long long exposure to white light...hung the film up for a while...tossed it in the bathtub under water, etc

Sweet. Any idea how much coupler per developer? What times did you use?

I have theater light filters which worked fine for color separations I did. We'll see. I'm suddenly pumped to do this. I've got remjet removal bath all set. I'll just need a few hours to do this.

I've got E6 first developer to use. I'll get on that. I have a half exposed roll of test images on my 120 Kodachrome now. I'll go finish that up.

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

I don't remember how much color couplers I used...except that I used more than the Rockland Colloid instructions suggested because I was unsure the experiment would work

don't recall the time/temp....temp was probably 68F or so since I know I didn't use the hot water baths I normally use for color processing

I think I just pretended I was developing Tri-X and used that time for 1st developer and made similar guesses for the color steps

it'll be interesting to see what your results are

I need to get some c41 chemicals now and make a few more attempts

I had my fun doing it my way w/o any expert advice...now maybe I can try improving the method with input from people here

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

This is the kind of dialog that I hoped to start with the OP. Try to get some creative juice flowing.

I'm glad to hear that Kodachrome might be doable with a low cost low tech approach!

PE

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

I'm going to participate in a huge art show this June in Wash DC ( www.artomatic.org ) with about 750 or so other artists ( we take over a large building for about 5 weeks, fill it with art...music...poetry...film...dance, etc ) ...I was planning on exhibiting some of my homemade cameras alongside the photos they took...now I think including this project might be great fun too -- starting with the first humble results and hopefully ending up with a nice clear photo

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

Go for it.

You should see some of the results from my first home made emulsions about 4 years ago. I never posted them!

PE

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

which c41 chemistry do you recommend?

I think in a previous exchange you said the bleach should be a ferricyanide bleach?

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

It depends on quantity. I got the 19 liter kodak C41 developer replenisher from adorama for $25. Starter is an additional $6 or something. Don't make your own. Color fix is cheap, bleach will be more difficult now that bleach III is gone. You could always buy the E6 bleach, though I think that requires a dip in the prebleach bath as an activator. Kodak makes a product for bleaching still. There was a link to it a while back. Look in the Bleach III discontinued threads.

EDIT: I just rolled the 120 Kodachrome. It appears to be only about 4 inches longer than a regular 120 roll. IDK what the fuss was about. I'll try processing when I get a chance before the end of the week.

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

DarkroomExperimente said:
which c41 chemistry do you recommend?

I think in a previous exchange you said the bleach should be a ferricyanide bleach?

I've tried checking on that and I have no answer for the Rockand colloid couplers. The "real" Kodachrome can use FeEDTA bleaches or just about any bleach out there AFAIK. They are pretty sturdy.

PE

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

FYI 6 months of work just got done in an hour. Thanks PE.

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

thanks...I saw in another thread where you mentioned a separate bleach and fix is better than a blix

it finally dawned on me that I only need to do short strips to test different process ideas...which also means it'll much cheaper & easier to try a zillion different ideas

....this especially makes sense since the last time I tried removing remjet in the dark it was a total clumsy mess....with just a short piece of film it should be much easier...ditto for the re-exposure steps

re:filters....the sample lighting gels I have have little data sheets giving transmission at different wavelengths....so I can kinda sortta find one that matches the right filters...I love those sample filter books--the gels are perfect size to fit over my flash(es)

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

We used 12" x 35mm strips for our tests and we used WR 98, 99 and 70 filters.

PE

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

Luckily I am a student at a highschool which has a theater 10 feet away from the darkroom

I'm going whole roll. We'll see.

Any idea how long you developed first time in D76? The time is hilariously short: 2 minutes @ 99 degrees. E6 is 3 times that. I'm wondering if it has to do with the thin emulsion or if it's a fast developer. I'm tempted to go over so I get white blocks instead of nothing.

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

so that's red, green & blue?

does this mean 3 re-exposures to light...instead of 2 + chemical fogging?

or were the blue&green used together?

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

I didn't do it at 99, 100, or 104

I was probably doing something like 10 min @ 68 degrees, but not sure really...too bad I didn't take notes

I did a lot of googling...I got some information from websites describing how to develop kodachrome movie film as B&W ...I probably based my times on whatever I read there

a lot of my info is likely to be on an old computer...I'll have to snoop around

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

DarkroomExperimente said:
so that's red, green & blue?

does this mean 3 re-exposures to light...instead of 2 + chemical fogging?

or were the blue&green used together?

Sorry, that was for a process that did not use a green layer fogging step. You can eliminate the green re-exposure. Just Red, Blue, then fog with white light.

PE

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 2, 2009

thanks

and if anyone knows how to make a cheap clock from Walmart run backwards, I'm all ears....it's proving trickier than expected

[*2 hours later...Eureka!! I figured it out...a totally unexpected trick* ]

nickandre · Mar 3, 2009

Red/Cyan goes first right to reduce possibility of blue fog? Today I successfully blackened the dark closet with gross remjet leading to odd questions from the Photo 1 class as to exactly what was going on in there. The closet is big enough to re-expose 15 odd 120 rolls simultaneously. Whose idea was this anyways? I chose 4 minutes at random for first development w/ old E6 first developer at the stated temp (99 or w/e.) I'm beginning to guestimate that I absolutely singed the roll and there will be giant white blocks on it instead of pictures, but I'll have some idea during red re-exposure tomorrow. Not bad-one week per roll.

So for re-exposure you took a camera flash with the gel held over it and fired it off at full power? That could help for very very accurate re-exposures. We shall see. Just have to tape over the LED.

Can't help you with the clock. Sorry.

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 3, 2009

I used to use a flash to make contact prints before I had an enlarger, but didn't think of it for this project...interesting idea

when I did it I THINK I used a flashlight with a gel for the red and a thick piece of plastic for the blue...but the only re-exposure step I remember clearly was the last exposure to white light

re:backwards clock..I figured it out last night, emailed a few friends & my porsche mechanic buddy mentioned some porsche transmissions can be re-assembled wrong giving you 5 reverse gears and one very slow forward gear

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 3, 2009

just noticed the rockland colloid instructions (online at their site) say to use a non-rapid fixer

any thoughts on why we shouldn't use a rapid fixer?

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2009

IDK. Rapid fixers can be acidic or basic, but all contain ammonium ion.

All Kodak, Fuji and Agfa color dyes and couplers are immune to ammonium ion, but can react badly to very acidic or alkaline pH solutions. That is one reason why the bleaches, blixes and fixes for color are near neutral.

So, the way the statement is phrased is vague to me but suggestive of a pH problem which could either alter dye hue or destroy dye.

BTW, I thought more about your trial Kodachromes, and they are very good, but they look as if the rem jet might have been removed unevenly or the film could have had water on it when reexposed, most likely the latter. I cannot tell for sure, but Kodachrome should be wiped as dry as possible on the front and back when being reexposed.

PE

Autochrome, Kodachrome and home made high speed films

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